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The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)
Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.


Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams


Thread 162
TNS Archives


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: christianlist; michaeldobbs
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Do you think God is more pleased with someone who wants to go to church or someone who is obligated?

I agree. It is sad that people need to be told to spend an hour or so in worship. But what are ya gonna do? People need to be told a lot of things that are, in the end, good for them.

Of course, God enjoys voluntary worship. The obligation is a bare bones mimimum, and many Catholics worship every day, without being obliged. Consider the obligation like a warning. Just as you consider fruit to naturally come from being saved, one would expect a sincere Catholic to worship at least weekly. If you do not meet this "obligation," your sincereity as a Christian is in doubt.

SD

24,541 posted on 02/06/2002 9:19:21 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
BZZ. No points for guessing. We all know you consider the whole bible to be inspired and important, but that's non-responsive. Are you not a "fundamentalist"?
24,542 posted on 02/06/2002 9:20:01 AM PST by IMRight
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To: JHavard
Do you find even the remotest suggestion in scripture that Joseph had been married prior to Mary

Do you find even the remotest suggestion in Scripture that Joseph was not married prior to Mary?

Does Scripture absolutely rule out this possibilty? Is all that is true in Scripture?

SD

24,543 posted on 02/06/2002 9:22:45 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: IMRight
Maybe you could look at it as buying tickets on two horses in the same race?

I would look at it as being supportive and respectful of your wife's faith. And vice versa. Now what about the kids? Did you get married in the Catholic Church? Will the kids be brought up Catholic?

SD

24,544 posted on 02/06/2002 9:24:58 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
Jesus' birth left Mary intact. It was miraculous. Secondly, virginity is not lost by childbirth. It is lost by intercourse. If a young woman loses her hymen through another manner (as many do) she is still a virgin if no man has entered her.

Sorry, I didn't realize that there was a belief that Mary's hymen was intact also. Is this a doctrine that has a sciptural basis? Of course I am aware of the specifics of virginity, sex, and childbirth. My point was that in an ancient society, if a woman didn't have her hymen intact, it was a pretty safe bet that the society of the time deemed her not to be a virgin.

2. That Joseph was married before and had kids from a previous marriage. Again, in order to support the idea of perpetual virginity, an entire family history of Joseph that exists nowhere but in a belief has to be read into scripture.
Does Scripture tell you Joseph was not a widower? Does it tell you he was? Neither. Then accepting the idea is not contrary to Scripture. And the belief is ancient. And it is not read into Scripture, except for those who think Scripture is everything.

Using this criteria one must give credence to any doctrine, no matter how silly it might be. The bible doesn't say Paul wasn't a homosexual, so Paul could be a homosexual. The bible doesn't say that Jesus didn't visit America, so he could have gone to America. The bible doesn't say that the earth didn't have 3 inch purple people running around in the world, so it could have.

3. That greek lacks a way to express "half-brother" or "cousin" and that the original writers of scripture were not expressing themselves exactly as they wanted.

It is the Hebrew that lacks this wording. The Greek was expressing the idea that the Hebrews put forward. The original writers may not have thought that 1800 years later people would start to use their texts to deconstruct the stories that were passed down as true.

I don't know Hebrew, but I have a hard time believing that nobody knew whether you were talking about full brothers, half-brothers, cousins or anyhing else in Hebrew. Didn't JHavard have an example of the description of a cousin?

24,545 posted on 02/06/2002 9:25:47 AM PST by DouglasKC
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To: IMRight
Are you not a "fundamentalist"?

Is the pope a catholic?

What type of fundamentalist list do you want, liberal, ultra liberal, conservative, dogmatic, or Jesus hates fags dot.com type?

BigMack

24,546 posted on 02/06/2002 9:26:34 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
ok. how about these verses:
"… Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Pretty close, eh? Do you think, reading what Jesus said here, that God may grant your family eternal life?
24,547 posted on 02/06/2002 9:28:57 AM PST by D-fendr
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To: SoothingDave
We were married in the Church (well, we were married in 1st Baptist Church of Washington, GA, but with the blessing of the RCC). It has always been our intention to raise the children Catholic. "Family issues" have made that difficult, but it is certainly our intent. I will be satisfied if they grow up to love the Lord (my standards were changed when my youngest brother adopted a belief system that doesn't match anything here. I'd prefer him to go to church with Woodkirk ot Havoc - no offense intended by that, merely a recognition of how far apart our beliefs seem to be).
24,548 posted on 02/06/2002 9:31:40 AM PST by IMRight
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
What type of fundamentalist list do you want, liberal, ultra liberal, conservative, dogmatic, or Jesus hates fags dot.com type?

For some reason I always thought others put that label on us and not ourselves.

24,549 posted on 02/06/2002 9:32:00 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: SoothingDave
#24443
Thanks for the readings, Dave .
BTW, today is also the Memorial of Paul Miki and his companions ,(26 of them) who were tortured and put to death by the Shogun rulers of Japan for the crime of being Catholic Christians .
24,550 posted on 02/06/2002 9:32:35 AM PST by dadwags
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
I'd be very interested in reading that last one. lol.

Seriously, Fundamentalists get their name from a series of works (I think from the late 19th century) called "The Fundamentals". Which boiled down essential doctrine into just five (I think) points that you must accept in order to be a Christian. They wrote at great length defending those five items as the core of Christian faith. For somebody (who types so fast) with all the documentation for the history of the Baptist faith, i would have thought that you could just list them. It's amazing to me how many people consider themselves fundamentalists without even knowing what those fundamentals are.

24,551 posted on 02/06/2002 9:36:25 AM PST by IMRight
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To: DouglasKC
Sorry, I didn't realize that there was a belief that Mary's hymen was intact also. Is this a doctrine that has a sciptural basis? Of course I am aware of the specifics of virginity, sex, and childbirth. My point was that in an ancient society, if a woman didn't have her hymen intact, it was a pretty safe bet that the society of the time deemed her not to be a virgin.

I don't believe that there is any official teaching on the subject. But there is a pious belief that Mary gave birth Jesus without any labor pains and without violating her hymen. As I said this is a belief that is not required, but not exactly discouraged either.

Using this criteria one must give credence to any doctrine, no matter how silly it might be. The bible doesn't say Paul wasn't a homosexual, so Paul could be a homosexual. The bible doesn't say that Jesus didn't visit America, so he could have gone to America. The bible doesn't say that the earth didn't have 3 inch purple people running around in the world, so it could have.

No. You don't have to give "creedence" to any crazy belief that comes down the pike. What you have to do is give them consideration. You can't just say "well, the Bible doesn't say this, so it can't be true." Sorry. You can't. If the Bible clearly says otherwise, you can dismiss things as contrary to Scripture. But if the Bible is silent, you must at least give an idea the once over.

Bottom line. The idea that Joseph was a widower is not contradicted by Scripture and is thusly plausible.

I don't know Hebrew, but I have a hard time believing that nobody knew whether you were talking about full brothers, half-brothers, cousins or anyhing else in Hebrew. Didn't JHavard have an example of the description of a cousin?

Really? You can't imagine an extended family clan with women dying in childbirth, etc. and lots of cousins around and half brothers, etc.? I can. There is a Greek passage which uses the greek word for cousin. But that doesn't mean that other books were not taking the Hebrew word "Brother" and rendering it in Greek in an overly literal way.

SD

24,552 posted on 02/06/2002 9:36:44 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
And please don't tell me there are "ultra liberal" fundamentalists? My head could explode just trying to think about it.
24,553 posted on 02/06/2002 9:38:16 AM PST by IMRight
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To: IMRight
And please don't tell me there are "ultra liberal" fundamentalists?

It's like that cross between a Jehovah's Witness and a Unitarian - you get someone who knocks on your door for no apparent reason. :-)

SD

24,554 posted on 02/06/2002 9:41:33 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
It's like that cross between a Jehovah's Witness and a Unitarian - you get someone who knocks on your door for no apparent reason. :-)

LOL. I've got to write that one down.

24,555 posted on 02/06/2002 9:43:11 AM PST by IMRight
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To: D-fendr
Pretty close, eh? Do you think, reading what Jesus said here, that God may grant your family eternal life?

Thou shalt love the Lord, thy God, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Matthew 22:37–40)

Do you want to come to God on that kind of basis? Are you prepared to tell God today that you do love Him, love Him every moment of the day and have loved Him with all your mind, your heart and your soul, that you have never loved or put anything ahead of Him? Are you prepared to say to God that you do love your neighbor as yourself? Unless you are, my friend, stay away from the Ten Commandments as a means of salvation. They do not save you. They will condemn you.

“Weighed in the balances and found wanting” was the experience of a king in Daniel’s day. And today, when the Ten Commandments are put on one side of the balances and you or I step on the other, we will fall short. We will have been found wanting, my friend. The Law reveals who God is, and it reveals how far man and God are apart.

BigMack

24,556 posted on 02/06/2002 9:47:24 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Very well said.
24,557 posted on 02/06/2002 9:49:16 AM PST by IMRight
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
For some reason I always thought others put that label on us and not ourselves.

Its a hate thing they all try to label us with, just pick your label and watch out for the "rocks" :)

BigMack

24,558 posted on 02/06/2002 9:52:26 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain;invincibly ignorant
For some reason I always thought others put that label on us and not ourselves.

Its a hate thing they all try to label us with

Um, guys, it is your label. The books, mentioned above by IMRight started the whole movement. The books about "The Fundamentals."

SD

24,559 posted on 02/06/2002 9:55:56 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
Um, guys, it is your label. The books, mentioned above by IMRight started the whole movement. The books about "The Fundamentals."

Its gone well beyond that now. You could even be labeled a fundy by some.

24,560 posted on 02/06/2002 9:58:34 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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