Why The War Was Not About Slavery

Conventional wisdom of the moment tells us that the great war of 1861—1865 was “about” slavery or was “caused by” slavery. I submit that this is not a historical judgment but a political slogan. What a war is about has many answers according to the varied perspectives of different participants and of those who come after. To limit so vast an event as that war to one cause is to show contempt for the complexities of history as a quest for the understanding of human action.

Two generations ago, most perceptive historians, much more learned than the current crop, said that the war was “about” economics and was “caused by” economic rivalry. The war has not changed one bit since then. The perspective has changed. It can change again as long as people have the freedom to think about the past. History is not a mathematical calculation or scientific experiment but a vast drama of which there is always more to be learned.

I was much struck by Barbara Marthal’s insistence in her Stone Mountain talk on the importance of stories in understanding history. I entirely concur. History is the experience of human beings. History is a story and a story is somebody’s story. It tells us about who people are. History is not a political ideological slogan like “about slavery.” Ideological slogans are accusations and instruments of conflict and domination. Stories are instruments of understanding and peace.

Let’s consider the war and slavery. Again and again I encounter people who say that the South Carolina secession ordinance mentions the defense of slavery and that one fact proves beyond argument that the war was caused by slavery. The first States to secede did mention a threat to slavery as a motive for secession. They also mentioned decades of economic exploitation.

This "provable fact" that is not recognized by any historian ever.

Because you don't have a f***ing mind of your own and must have whatever you know poured into you by an "expert". You are like a liberal with global warming. You only believe what "experts" say, even though you can look up the facts for your self and find out the "experts" are just wrong.

In fact the national park service clearly states that the confederacy opened fire first.

An arm of the US Government says the US government is completely blameless and that all the death and bloodshed was someone else's fault? Go on!

But luckily disingenuouslamp has discovered the truth for all of us!

You aren't interested in any "truth". You are only interested in hearing conformation of what you wish to believe. Truth is actually your enemy on this topic. You HATE the truth, because it doesn't fit what you wish to believe.

Porter opened fire on those ships. He did so with no knowledge of events in Charleston. If you read his memoirs, he does indeed claim to have fired the first shot of the war.

But you don't want to read what Porter has to say about events, because they WILL NOT FIT with what you want to believe.

Grow up and face ugly truths like a man. Don't run and hide and pretend they will just go away.

Until you go to the trouble to learn what Lieutenant David Dixon Porter did with those secret orders that Lincoln had hand written and which porter never disclosed, then you will remain ignorant of what happened.

Here is the order to Captain Samuel Mercer relieving him of command of the Powhatan. This order was hand written by Lincoln, and hand carried by Lieutenant Porter. Lieutenant Porter's own hand written orders from Lincoln have never been released. Porter never detailed what was in them, but clearly they authorized him to fire on Confederate Ships and Confederate shore emplacements, because that is exactly what he did.

1861 Order to Captain Samuel Mercer.
(Confidential.)
WASHINGTON CITY, April 1, 1861
SIR:--Circumstances render it necessary to place in command of your ship (and for a special purpose) an officer who is fully informed and instructed in relation to the wishes of the Government, and you will therefore consider yourself detached. But in taking this step the Government does not in the least reflect upon your efficiency or patriotism; on the contrary, have the fullest confidence in your ability to perform any duty required of you. Hoping soon to be able to give you a better command than the one you now enjoy, and trusting that you will have full confidence in the disposition of the Government toward you, I remain, etc.,
ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

So yeah, about your "accidentally signed a document in a pile of other documents" bullsh*t. No, Lincoln didn't "accidentally" relieve Mercer of Command and put Porter in his place. It was quite deliberate.

“Thus two projects got under way at the same time. The Sumter mission, pressed chiefly by Welles and Blair, was largely a naval expedition commanded by Fox; the Pickens expedition, sponsored by Seward, was an Army affair led by Meigs....

Inevitably, there were contests for the limited resources for these projects. Welles intended the navy’s most powerful steamer, the Powhatan, to be part of Fox’s fleet, but Seward wanted it for Meig’s expedition. Placing an order assigning the ship to the Pickens fleet before the President in a pile of other documents, he got Lincoln’s signature.

On learning what happened, Welles dragged Seward to the White House, where, though it was nearly midnight, Lincoln had not gone to bed. Confronted with the problem, the President, as Welles remembered, ‘took upon himself the whole blame, said it was carelessness, heedlessness on his part’ and that ‘he ought to have been more careful and attentive’. He directed that the Powhatan be restored to Fox’s expedition.

Even then there was evidence of the total confusion that characterized the administration....the directive reassigning the ship was signed ‘Seward’. Lt David Porter, in command of the Powhatan, received the new order...but declined to follow it; a directive from the Secretary of State could not supersede his original orders signed by the President...” - Lincoln, by David Donald

Secretary of State William H. Seward, Captain Montgomery C. Meigs of the US Army, and Porter devised a plan for the relief of Fort Pickens. The principal element of their plan required use of the steam frigate USS Powhatan, which would be commanded by Porter and would carry reinforcements to the fort from New York. Because no one was above suspicion in those days, the plan had to be implemented in complete secrecy; not even Secretary of the Navy Gideon Welles was to be advised.[26]

Welles was in the meantime preparing an expedition for the relief of the garrison at Fort Sumter. As he was unaware that Powhatan would not be available, he included it in his plans. When the other vessels assigned to the effort showed up, the South Carolina troops at Charleston began to bombard Fort Sumter, and the Civil War was on. The relief expedition could only wait outside the harbor. The expedition had little chance to be successful in any case; without the support of the guns on Powhatan, it was completely impotent. The only contribution made by the expedition was to carry the soldiers who had defended Fort Sumter back to the North following their surrender and parole. - Wiki

Hence the folly of someone taking one order, without any context, and turning it into a nefarious plot by the evil mastermind Lincoln. And the folly of believing Lincoln or anyone else had total control, or even knew what they were doing!

In the month he was President prior to the SOUTH opening fire on Ft Sumter, Lincoln was just beginning to learn how to be President. He had opposing counsel on all sides offering a multitude of solutions. At no time COULD he KNOW how the South would react, and he often guessed wrong. Ships went where he didn’t want, or didn’t sail at all, or sailed to the wrong place. Orders went astray, or were badly worded, and that was only on HIS side! He heard every possible variation on how the South would react.

It was the age old problem of “intelligence”. Intelligence is often totally wrong. It often conflicts - been there, seen that during my years in the military - and someone who can guess what to believe correctly over half the time is a genius.

You, DiogenesLamp, are writing like someone who had never read an intelligence report or been tasked to provide alternatives to a boss. I suspect you have never worked on war plans, let alone on planning battlefield operations. You’ve read too many conspiracy theories and had too little experience in real world missions.

Hanlon’s Razor: “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

Learn it.

“Porter opened fire on those ships. He did so with no knowledge of events in Charleston. If you read his memoirs, he does indeed claim to have fired the first shot of the war.”

Hmmmm....

“In April 1861, while under the command of Lt. David Dixon Porter, she assisted in the relief of Fort Pickens, Florida. President Abraham Lincoln had attempted to countermand the order sending the Powhatan to Fort Pickens and send the ship to assist in the relief expedition to Fort Sumter instead, but because Secretary of State William H. Seward signed the order “Seward” rather than “Lincoln,” the order was not obeyed.” - Wiki, USS Powhatan

“On January 10, 1861, the day Florida declared its secession from the Union, Slemmer destroyed over 20,000 pounds of gunpowder at Fort McRee. He then spiked the guns at Fort Barrancas, and moved his small force of 51 soldiers and 30 sailors to Fort Pickens. On January 15, 1861 and January 18, 1861, Slemmer refused surrender demands from Colonel William Henry Chase of the Florida militia. Chase had designed and constructed the fort as a captain in the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. Slemmer defended the fort against threat of attack until he was reinforced and relieved in April 11, 1861 by Colonel Harvey Brown and the USS Brooklyn. “ - Wiki, Ft Pickens

Then, on January 15, soldiers from Florida and Alabama demanded the surrender of Fort Pickens. Lieutenant Slemmer refused. On January 28, 1861, a truce was reached that stated that the South would not attack and Fort Pickens would not be reinforced.

By the time Lincoln took office in March, both Fort Sumter in the harbor of Charleston, South Carolina, and Fort Pickens, needed supplies. In his inaugural address Lincoln had pledged to continue to occupy federal property in the seceded states. If he withdrew the garrisons at those forts it would mean he officially recognized the Confederacy and its right to occupy those posts; if, on the other hand, he supplied the forts, he risked war.

The Union did send ships filled with supplies and reinforcements from Fort Monroe, Virginia, to Fort Pickens, but under terms of the truce they dared not land. For 10 weeks, the Union’s ships with blue coated soldiers aboard lay at anchor near Fort Pickens, while inside the fort, fearful of a surprise assault on the island, Lieutenant Slemmer kept his command on full alert. The Confederates had in fact planned such a surprise attack, but bad weather delayed them until the 12th of April. Then, before they could get under way, they learned that South Carolina forces had opened fire on Fort Sumter. The civil war so many had feared for so long became a reality.

Soon more Union ships with supplies and troops arrived off Fort Pickens. By the summer of 1861, the fort was still firmly under Union control, and the Union navy blockaded Pensacola’s harbor. Colonel Harvey Brown, now in command of Fort Pickens, and his thousand or more soldiers strengthened the island’s defenses by building gun emplacements, mounting guns, drilling, and moving supplies from ships to the fort.

https://www.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/38pickens/38facts1.htm

Here is what Jefferson Davis said [source: page 263 of "Lincoln Takes Command" by John Shipley Tilley, quoting from McElroy's "Jefferson Davis", volume 1, page 289-290; my bold below] The order for the sending of the fleet was a declaration of war. The responsibility is on their shoulders, not ours. The juggle for position as to who shall fire the first shot in such an hour is unworthy of a great people and their cause. A deadly weapon has been aimed at our heart. Only a fool would wait until the first shot has been fired. The assault has been made. It is of no importance who shall strike the first blow or fire the first gun. If Davis was so intent on starting the war, why did he send Commissioners to Washington to negotiate a peaceful separation from the Union? Lincoln wouldn't see the Commissioners, and Seward kept telling them and implying that Fort Sumter would be evacuated. Once the Commissioners realized that a war fleet was heading South, they "charged the Lincoln Administration with gross perfidy in attempting to reinforce Fort Sumter under pretext of evacuation" on April 11, 1861 [as reported in the April 13, 1861 "Daily Picayune" newspaper of New Orleans, see my old post Link to post 417]. If they wanted war so much. why didn't Davis attack Fort Pickens earlier before Lincoln sent his expedition down? Governor Pickens of South Carolina also believed that the coming war fleet with the intention of forcing their way into the harbor represented that a state of war existed [Official Records, Serial I, Pages 292-293, April 9, 1861; my emphasis below]. State of South Carolina, Headquarters, April 9, 1861. Hon. Mr. Walker, Secretary of War: Sir: At the request of General Beauregard I inclose the within. I took possession of the mails this morning from Sumter, and retained the packages marked "official." These are all sent you. The private letters are all sent, as directed, to their owners. I did this because I consider a state of war is now inaugurated by the authorities at Washington, and all information of a public nature was necessary to us. The mails and all intercourse of any kind with Sumter are now forbidden, and I immediately refused Captain Talbot any interview with Major Anderson, and also his request to be restored to his command in the fort. I called in General Beauregard, and made Captain Talbot and Mr. Chew repeat in his presence what they had said and what the former desired as to Sumter, and General Beauregard entirely and immediately concurred. You will see by these letters of Major Anderson how it is intended to supply the fort; but by God's providence we will, I trust, be prepared for them; and if they approach with war vessels also, I think you will hear of as bloody a fight as ever occurred. We now have three thousand seven hundred men at the different posts and batteries, and will have by to-morrow three thousand more, which I have called down. From my calculation, I think they will have about two thousand six hundred, and will attempt to land in Launch-boats with 24 and 12 pounders, and it will probably be on the lower end of Morris Island, next the light-house. If so, we will have a fine rifle regiment to give them a cordial welcome from behind sand hills (that are natural fortifications), and two Dahlgren guns will be right on them, besides four 24-pounders in battery. I have four hundred fine Enfield rifles that have been practiced at nine hundred yards, and on that island, altogether, we have now one thousand nine hundred and fifty men, and are increasing it today. There has just arrived on the bar a fine rifled cannon from Liverpool, of the latest maker (Blakely gun), an improvement upon Armstrong, of steel rolls or coils, with an elevation of seven and one-half degrees to a mile. It throws a shell or twelve-pound shot with the accuracy of a dueling-pistol, and only one and one-half pounds of powder. Such, they write me, is this gun, and I hope to have it in position to-night. We expect the attack about 6 o'clock in the morning, on account of the tide. Very respectfully, F. W. PICKENS. Of course, an incoming missile from North Korea isn't an indication that a state of war exists. < /sarc >

Yankeefa is completely immune to any facts which run contrary to what Leftists in Academia told them - since that's what they want to believe anyway.

Lincoln knew what he wanted to do. I am reminded of an old post by southernsunshine that was on a thread that was later deleted because of a flame war (otherwise I would provide a link to her post). southernsunshine had found a letter from Carl Schurz to Lincoln dated April 5, 1861, that said the following [here is an excerpt from her October 18, 2011 post]:

4/5/1861 Carl Schurz to Lincoln (bold mine [ i.e., hers]):

Some time ago you told me, that you did not want to call an extra-session of Congress for fear of reopening the compromise-agitation. You were undoubtedly right then. But any vigorous act on the part of your Administration, any display of power and courage will remove that danger. If you first reinforce the forts and then call Congress together, the enthusiasm of the masses will be so great and overwhelming, that Congress will be obliged to give you any legislation you may ask for. You will be master of the situation, and supported by the confidence of the people, the government will be stronger than it ever was before.”

Here is a link to the letter in the Library of Congress: Schurz letter to Lincoln, 4/5/1861

So, according to the letter, Lincoln had earlier told Schurz he didn't want compromise. To compromise with the South and let them successfully secede would have meant that a large loss or tariff revenue to the North. As Lincoln said to the group from Baltimore that urged Lincoln to seek peace after the attack on Fort Sumter, "And what is to become of the revenue? I shall have no government -- no resources."

The potential loss of revenue is why he provoked war with the South. As he basically said to the South in his first inaugural speech, you can keep your slaves, but we want and will collect the tariff revenue on your imports.

That was a pretty clear indications of Lincoln's priorities.

I am also reminded of what Lincoln's two secretaries, Nicolay and Hay, said about Lincoln and Fort Sumter:

President Lincoln in deciding the Sumter question had adopted a simple but effective policy. To use his own words, he determined to "send bread to Anderson"; if the rebels fired on that, they would not be able to convince the world that he had begun the civil war.

There is one major flaw with that argument. Some of us know that the Mayor or Governor (don't remember which) back in January 1861 offered to provide Anderson with food for his troops at Fort Sumter. Anderson refused the offer, preferring instead to buy food in Charleston. The Confederates let Anderson do that until April 7. They had learned that Lincoln was sending his up-until-then secret expedition to Charleston to resupply or reinforce Fort Sumter by force if necessary.

Some "bread to the starving garrison" that was.

“Some of us know that the Mayor or Governor (don’t remember which) back in January 1861 offered to provide Anderson with food for his troops at Fort Sumter. Anderson refused the offer, preferring instead to buy food in Charleston. The Confederates let Anderson do that until April 7....Some “bread to the starving garrison” that was.” - rustbucket

Really? So - according to you - Ft Sumter didn’t need supplies? Pity Fort Sumter didn’t bother to inform Washington, which sent two expeditions to deliver supplies!

“Anderson’s move to Fort Sumter had its drawbacks for the Union garrison. In the hasty evacuation of Fort Moultrie, most of Anderson’s supplies had to be left behind. The withdrawal forced Anderson, as he later wrote to Washington, “to sacrifice the greater part of my stores as it is now too late to attempt their removal.” The stage was set for a confrontation at Fort Sumter that no one wanted.

The Union soldiers were well-protected in the fort, but they could only hold out as long as their supplies lasted. “We have one [month’s] supply of hospital stores and about four months’ supply of provisions for my command,” Anderson reported to Washington about the situation at Fort Sumter. If Anderson and his men were to hold the fort for long against the Southerners, they would soon have to receive supplies and reinforcements...

...In February, U.S. Navy Captain James Ward proposed a plan for several light-draft steamers loaded with men and provisions to run past the Confederate guns and land at Fort Sumter. It was a daring plan that called for Ward and his men to abandon their steamers and join Anderson’s beleaguered garrison inside Fort Sumter. He proposed to employ four or more small steamers belonging to the U.S. Coastal Survey to make the landing.

Many officials in Washington felt that Ward’s plan had every prospect of success. Nonetheless, outgoing President James Buchanan, fearing the operation might provoke a Confederate attack upon Fort Sumter, refused to authorize the plan...

...On March 19, 1861, Fox was dispatched to Charleston to visit Fort Sumter. “Our Uncle Abe Lincoln has taken a high esteem for me,” Fox wrote to his wife, “and wishes me to take dispatches to Major Anderson at Fort Sumter with regard to its final evacuation and to obtain a clear statement of his condition which his letters, probably guarded, do not fully exhibit.”

The trip gave Fox the opportunity to observe firsthand the situation at Fort Sumter. Upon his return to Washington, he finally won over those who were skeptical of his plan. With the help of Commodore Silas H. Stringham, the Navy Department’s detailing officer, Fox finally convinced Lincoln of the rescue plan’s viability.”

https://www.historynet.com/mission-to-relieve-fort-sumter-september-97-americas-civil-war-feature.htm

“When he delivered his inaugural address, the new President assumed that there was time for southern pro-union sentiment, which he greatly overestimated, to reassert itself, making a peaceful resolution to the crisis possible. The next morning, however, he received a letter from Robert Anderson informing him that Fort Sumter’s supplies would be exhausted in four to six weeks [mid-April at the latest] and that it would take a 20,000-man force to reinforce the fort.”

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/disp_textbook.cfm?smtID=2&psid=3059

“In the early hours of April 12, approximately nine hours after the Confederates had first asked Anderson to evacuate Fort Sumter, the envoys were again rowed out to the garrison. They made an offer: if Anderson would state when he and his men intended to quit the fort, the Confederates would hold their fire. Anderson called a council of his officers: How long could they hold out? Five days at most, he was told, which meant three days with virtually no food.”

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/fort-sumter-the-civil-war-begins-1018791/

Pity even the officers of Fort Sumter didn’t know they had been supplied with food bought in Charleston all along! Pity NO ONE knew the fort had ample food! Pity the commander of the fort LIED to Lincoln, isn’t it.... < / sarcasm >

Mr Rogers: "So no, in a war, until you actually TAKE an action, you do not KNOW how the other side will respond.
In any case, the South had a choice.
They could start the war, or insist the North start it.
And the SOUTH CHOSE to open fire on Fort Sumter.
No one “made them” do it!
They were not defending themselves from a Union attack.
It was NOT self-defense."

Right, and we have quotes from the time demonstrating all this "Lincoln tricked Davis" talk is pure nonsense.
Davis knew exactly what he was doing:

"There would be to us an advantage in so placing them that an attack by them would be a necessity, but when we are ready to relieve our territory and jurisdiction of the presence of a foreign garrison that advantage is overbalanced by other considerations."

So Davis well knew it was important to let the other side fire first, but that was "overbalanced by other considerations" at Fort Sumter.
And DiogenesLamp's endless nonsense about Lt. Porter & Fort Pickens is utterly demolished by this:

"The case of Pensacola then is reduced [to] the more palpable elements of a military problem and your measures may without disturbing views be directed to the capture of Fort Pickens and the defence of the harbor.
You will soon have I hope a force sufficient to occupy all the points necessary for that end.
As many additional troops as may be required can be promptly furnished."

But like any Democrat DiogenesLamp & others will claim, while punching your lights out, that you're just in the way of his fists!

Further, that Davis & Co. knew exactly what he was doing is well illustrated by his own Secretary of State, Robert Toombs' response to Lincoln's resupply mission message:

"Mr. President

, at this time it is suicide, murder, and will lose us every friend at the North.
You will wantonly strike a hornet's nest which extends from mountain to ocean, and legions now quiet will swarm out and sting us to death.
It is unnecessary; it puts us in the wrong; it is fatal."[19]"

Near the end of his life, Jefferson Davis himself acknowledged the importance of letting the other side fire first:

According to the Meriden Daily Journal

'United you are now, and if the Union is ever to be broken, let the other side break it.' "

No more "other considerations" for Jefferson Davis.

rustbucket: "Lincoln did not want peace.
As he told a delegation of 30 people from Baltimore who urged peace after the attack on Fort Sumter Link to the full content of the Baltimore Sun article in post 328: 'And what is to become of the revenue? I shall have no government -- no resources.' "

rockrr: "Where's the 'Not this sh!t again graphic?' "

Right, a similar quote was claimed by CSA Col. Baldwin post-war from his meeting with Lincoln in April 1861.
But neither quote is verified and both are at odds with what we know of the time, most especially the fact that only a tiny fraction of Federal revenues came directly from Confederate ports.

Yes, there were indeed suggestions for collecting Federal tariffs from Confederate ports, but they had nothing to do with Fort Sumter -- the suggestions were to place US warships offshore to collect tariffs, out of sight of Confederate ports.
Forts Sumter & Pickens were a different issue entirely.

Yet, maniacally our Marxist trained Lost Causers insist: Fort Sumter was all just "money, money, money!", though neither Lincoln nor his cabinet at the time said any such thing.

NKP_vet: "There’s a chance if Reagan had lost NC he was getting out of the race.
He won the state and subsequently almost got the nomination.
It paved his way for his crushing victory over the peanut farmer four years later."

Right, and I don't for a minute denigrate Senator Helms, from my mother's home state.
He was a huge asset to Ronald Reagan and the GOP generally, just as many Southerners vitally helped President Trump.
They deserve our gratitude & appreciation.

But a good many other Southerners, well... not so much.
And that's my only point here: just as elsewhere, plenty of Southerners pretend to wear the conservative mantle but turn out on further investigations to be a bit... well... weak.
Jeff Sessions comes to mind first, but I could easily name several others.
Still others didn't even pretend to be conservatives -- LBJ well knew he was throwing away the white Southern vote in 1964 and Senator Robert KKK Byrd... epitomized Democrat "ethics".

Mr. Rogers: "Who fired the first shots?"

DiogenesLamp: "Lieutenant Porter!
THAT is who fired the first shots!
You are hiding from this fact.
You keep trying to ignore evidence that this was a deliberate plan to create a war by Abraham Lincoln."

First of all, let's note again that virtually everything DiogenesLamp posts is a lie, and you can often judge how big a lie by the amount passion he puts into it.
So judging on his passion scale, we are here seeing a really Big Lie from DiogenesLamp.

Second, for a detailed description of the Fort Pickens Relief Expedition, see this link.
It shows that not only did Porter & Powhattan arrive late -- after Fort Pickens was already reinforced, thus breaking the previous "truce", but also after Fort Sumter and after Lincoln's call-up of 75,000 Union troops to suppress the rebellion.

DiogenesLamp: "Again, look up Porter's memoir.
He will inform you that *HE* fired shots first, and in compliance with secret orders from Lincoln. "

No, the facts are clear:

The Porter\Powhattan mission to Fort Pickens was approved by Lincoln before the Fox mission to Fort Sumter.
Porter's mission was to support transport ships with Union troops reinforcing Fort Pickens.
When Lincoln was confronted with the fact of his having approved two different Powhattan assignments, he acknowledged his mistake, took the blame and ordered Powhattan reassigned to the Fort Sumter mission.
Lt. Porter now in command of Powhattan ignored the new order because it was signed not by Lincoln but by Seward.
Beginning April 11, Fort Pickens was resupplied & reinforced from several Union ships.
On April 17, when Porter & Powhattan finally arrived off Pensacola, it was long after events at Fort Sumter and after Lincoln's call up of troops.
Porter & Powhattan arrived off Fort Pickens flying a British flag to discourage Confederate fire on them.
When Porter attempted to enter the harbor, the expedition commander, Col. Brown, ordered him not to because,
Porter's own report expressed frustration at the order and from this our own DiogenesLamp launches into flights of fantasy regarding alleged secret orders from Lincoln.
But Lincoln's alleged "secret orders" to Porter are irrelevant to the fact that Jefferson Davis on April 3, 1861 had already ordered CSA Gen. Bragg:

Mr. Rogers: "Lieutenant Porter did not [fire first shots]."

DiogenesLamp: "Have you read his memoir?
He most certainly did fire the first shots."

There is no record of Porter firing any shots when he finally arrived, late, on April 17.

Mr. Rogers: "No sane person doubts it was the South who first attacked.

DiogenesLamp: "Stop.
Just stop.
People have been brainwashed with this sh*t since the war.
Of course people thinks the South attacked first.
That is exactly how the history is written and repeated, and I had always believed it myself too until I finally read the real history of what happened.
Stop listening to your brainwashing, and start looking at the real facts surrounding the events in question."

Do you feel DiogenesLamp's passion here?
It tells us unequivocally that he wants us to swallow a really, really, really Big Lie of his.
If it weren't such a Big Lie, he wouldn't need so much passion to sell it.

DiogenesLamp: " 'The South attacked first!'
'The South only fought to keep slavery!'
Both are lies, but you very much want to believe them.
You need to grow up and start facing ugly truths that you do not like."

Both are true, though more accurate if we delete the word "only".
But DiogenesLamp just loathes & despises the truth, will say anything to deflect from it, deny it, ignore it or lie it away.
That's because DiogenesLamp is a Democrat a heart and like all such Democrats was born to lie.

“Both are true, though more accurate if we delete the word “only”.”

Good point. Both sides preferred for the other side to shoot first, IF a compromise could not be reached. But they both were doing a balancing act and reserved the right to take offensive action first IF they thought changing circumstances would benefit them from it.

Lincoln believed - erroneously - that states like Virginia would stay in the Union if SC fired first. Or maybe “hoped” is the right word.

Slavery certainly was not the only issue. Some in the North were willing to fight a war to free slaves, but not a majority. In the South, the rich wanted to keep slavery. Robert Lee thought slavery was the best that could be done for some time (a thousand years?) to come. Common soldiers probably approved of slavery, but they had no benefit from it. But they didn’t want any outsiders telling them slavery was wrong, either!

The South also misjudged the North. Unlike Lincoln, many on both sides thought “their boys” could whip 10 of the other side. Both sides started into a war believing it would cost them almost nothing. Not sure either side came close to understanding the passion on the other side. Lots of wars start that way!

But because no one in a war CONTROLS the other side, things just kept escalating. By 1863 IMHO, so many had died on both sides that neither side was truly willing to back away. After Gettysburg and Vicksburg, the war was over. But it took two years and many thousands of dead before Lee would admit he couldn’t continue the fight, and many in the South (including Lee) never admitted to defeat. 150 years later, the Lost Cause folks of 1870 march on....

rustbucket: "I am also reminded of what Lincoln's two secretaries, Nicolay and Hay, said about Lincoln and Fort Sumter:

"send bread to Anderson";

I don't think this quote is entirely wrong.
It's likely exactly what Lincoln was thinking -- he had no choice about resupplying Fort Sumter and if Davis used that as his excuse to start war, then so be it.
Better that Davis should start Civil War.

But that's a far cry from DiogenesLamp's lies saying Lincoln sent a "war fleet" with orders to "attack Confederates" in Charleston.
In fact, Lincoln's orders were effectively, "no first use of force" and his "war fleet" was intended to stay well outside the harbor while small boats sent in supplies under cover of darkness and/or fog.

rustbucket: "Davis and Governor Pickens were in good company saying the Lincoln's expedition of warships threatening to force their way into Charleston Harbor was a declaration of war.
Here is Madison on the use of force against a state [Constitutional Convention, May 31, 1787; thanks to poster southernsunshine for the Madison quote]:

"The use of force agst. a State, would look more like a declaration of war, than an infliction of punishment, and would probably be considered by the party attacked as a dissolution of all previous compacts by which it might be bound." Except that Lincoln's force wasn't against a state, it was rather a resupply mission for Union troops in a Union fort.
If a state chose to interpose itself, that was the state's choice.
Otherwise, Lincoln's mission would be 100% peaceful.

But Davis & Pickens well understood how Virginians looked at the issue and for them it didn't matter who fired first, if anyone did then Virginia would succeed.
That made Davis' order to "reduce" Fort Sumter mandatory.

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