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To: DiogenesLamp; OIFVeteran; rustbucket; Bubba Ho-Tep

“Thus two projects got under way at the same time. The Sumter mission, pressed chiefly by Welles and Blair, was largely a naval expedition commanded by Fox; the Pickens expedition, sponsored by Seward, was an Army affair led by Meigs....

Inevitably, there were contests for the limited resources for these projects. Welles intended the navy’s most powerful steamer, the Powhatan, to be part of Fox’s fleet, but Seward wanted it for Meig’s expedition. Placing an order assigning the ship to the Pickens fleet before the President in a pile of other documents, he got Lincoln’s signature.

On learning what happened, Welles dragged Seward to the White House, where, though it was nearly midnight, Lincoln had not gone to bed. Confronted with the problem, the President, as Welles remembered, ‘took upon himself the whole blame, said it was carelessness, heedlessness on his part’ and that ‘he ought to have been more careful and attentive’. He directed that the Powhatan be restored to Fox’s expedition.

Even then there was evidence of the total confusion that characterized the administration....the directive reassigning the ship was signed ‘Seward’. Lt David Porter, in command of the Powhatan, received the new order...but declined to follow it; a directive from the Secretary of State could not supersede his original orders signed by the President...” - Lincoln, by David Donald


Secretary of State William H. Seward, Captain Montgomery C. Meigs of the US Army, and Porter devised a plan for the relief of Fort Pickens. The principal element of their plan required use of the steam frigate USS Powhatan, which would be commanded by Porter and would carry reinforcements to the fort from New York. Because no one was above suspicion in those days, the plan had to be implemented in complete secrecy; not even Secretary of the Navy Gideon Welles was to be advised.[26]

Welles was in the meantime preparing an expedition for the relief of the garrison at Fort Sumter. As he was unaware that Powhatan would not be available, he included it in his plans. When the other vessels assigned to the effort showed up, the South Carolina troops at Charleston began to bombard Fort Sumter, and the Civil War was on. The relief expedition could only wait outside the harbor. The expedition had little chance to be successful in any case; without the support of the guns on Powhatan, it was completely impotent. The only contribution made by the expedition was to carry the soldiers who had defended Fort Sumter back to the North following their surrender and parole. - Wiki


Hence the folly of someone taking one order, without any context, and turning it into a nefarious plot by the evil mastermind Lincoln. And the folly of believing Lincoln or anyone else had total control, or even knew what they were doing!

In the month he was President prior to the SOUTH opening fire on Ft Sumter, Lincoln was just beginning to learn how to be President. He had opposing counsel on all sides offering a multitude of solutions. At no time COULD he KNOW how the South would react, and he often guessed wrong. Ships went where he didn’t want, or didn’t sail at all, or sailed to the wrong place. Orders went astray, or were badly worded, and that was only on HIS side! He heard every possible variation on how the South would react.

It was the age old problem of “intelligence”. Intelligence is often totally wrong. It often conflicts - been there, seen that during my years in the military - and someone who can guess what to believe correctly over half the time is a genius.

You, DiogenesLamp, are writing like someone who had never read an intelligence report or been tasked to provide alternatives to a boss. I suspect you have never worked on war plans, let alone on planning battlefield operations. You’ve read too many conspiracy theories and had too little experience in real world missions.

Hanlon’s Razor: “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”

Learn it.


763 posted on 05/11/2019 2:55:44 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools)
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To: Mr Rogers; DiogenesLamp; OIFVeteran; Bubba Ho-Tep; southernsunshine
In the month he was President prior to the SOUTH opening fire on Ft Sumter, Lincoln was just beginning to learn how to be President. He had opposing counsel on all sides offering a multitude of solutions. At no time COULD he KNOW how the South would react, and he often guessed wrong. Ships went where he didn’t want, or didn’t sail at all, or sailed to the wrong place. Orders went astray, or were badly worded, and that was only on HIS side! He heard every possible variation on how the South would react.

Lincoln knew what he wanted to do. I am reminded of an old post by southernsunshine that was on a thread that was later deleted because of a flame war (otherwise I would provide a link to her post). southernsunshine had found a letter from Carl Schurz to Lincoln dated April 5, 1861, that said the following [here is an excerpt from her October 18, 2011 post]:

4/5/1861 Carl Schurz to Lincoln (bold mine [ i.e., hers]):

Some time ago you told me, that you did not want to call an extra-session of Congress for fear of reopening the compromise-agitation. You were undoubtedly right then. But any vigorous act on the part of your Administration, any display of power and courage will remove that danger. If you first reinforce the forts and then call Congress together, the enthusiasm of the masses will be so great and overwhelming, that Congress will be obliged to give you any legislation you may ask for. You will be master of the situation, and supported by the confidence of the people, the government will be stronger than it ever was before.”

Here is a link to the letter in the Library of Congress: Schurz letter to Lincoln, 4/5/1861

So, according to the letter, Lincoln had earlier told Schurz he didn't want compromise. To compromise with the South and let them successfully secede would have meant that a large loss or tariff revenue to the North. As Lincoln said to the group from Baltimore that urged Lincoln to seek peace after the attack on Fort Sumter, "And what is to become of the revenue? I shall have no government -- no resources."

The potential loss of revenue is why he provoked war with the South. As he basically said to the South in his first inaugural speech, you can keep your slaves, but we want and will collect the tariff revenue on your imports.

That was a pretty clear indications of Lincoln's priorities.

I am also reminded of what Lincoln's two secretaries, Nicolay and Hay, said about Lincoln and Fort Sumter:

President Lincoln in deciding the Sumter question had adopted a simple but effective policy. To use his own words, he determined to "send bread to Anderson"; if the rebels fired on that, they would not be able to convince the world that he had begun the civil war.

There is one major flaw with that argument. Some of us know that the Mayor or Governor (don't remember which) back in January 1861 offered to provide Anderson with food for his troops at Fort Sumter. Anderson refused the offer, preferring instead to buy food in Charleston. The Confederates let Anderson do that until April 7. They had learned that Lincoln was sending his up-until-then secret expedition to Charleston to resupply or reinforce Fort Sumter by force if necessary.

Some "bread to the starving garrison" that was.

766 posted on 05/11/2019 7:58:15 PM PDT by rustbucket
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To: Mr Rogers
Inevitably, there were contests for the limited resources for these projects. Welles intended the navy’s most powerful steamer, the Powhatan, to be part of Fox’s fleet, but Seward wanted it for Meig’s expedition. Placing an order assigning the ship to the Pickens fleet before the President in a pile of other documents, he got Lincoln’s signature.

It's as if we aren't even speaking the same language. I just showed you conclusive proof that the reassigning of the Powhatan with secret orders was deliberate, because Lincoln hand wrote the orders relieving Captain Mercer of his duty, and what do you do? You come right back with that "accident" bullsh*t.

Why should I even bother trying when your willingness to believe something contradicted by facts is so overpowering for you?

782 posted on 05/12/2019 3:14:48 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: Mr Rogers

Good post.


853 posted on 05/15/2019 10:49:59 PM PDT by HandyDandy (All right then I will go to hell H. Finn)
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