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End of the Social Security Number? A White House Official Thinks So
www.wsj.com ^ | Updated Oct. 3, 2017 7:20 p.m. ET | By Yuka Hayashi

Posted on 10/04/2017 8:08:22 AM PDT by Red Badger

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To: ConservativeWarrior
In short, PKI provides authentication and non repudiation by way of private keys, public authorities, and one-way hashes.

I'm well aware of how public key crypto works. I've used PGP since it was a DOS-only program somehere around version 1.9 or something like that.

My main problem with any kind of implementation of this is, in fact, the implementation. In short, unless the implementation were absolutely brain-dead simple and almost impossible to screw up or lose the generated keys, it would be a flustr cluck of cosmic proportions. The average person out there has no idea how to securely do anything. They are also apparently incapable of taking any precautions whatsoever to back up their data. People are reallyreally stupid about this stuff.

Even for folks like me who have been dealing with cryptography for literally decades now, it is really difficult to get anyone to actually use it because it takes dedication, understanding, and care to actually do it right.

How are you going to implement a PKI in such a way that a grandmother won't lose her ability to authenticate anything when the hard drive on her computer that she barely knows how to browse the web with, and has no backups of goes TU?

81 posted on 10/04/2017 12:10:00 PM PDT by zeugma (I live in the present due to the constraints of the Space-Time Continuum. —Hank Green)
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To: zeugma

We agree that it’s not a tenable solution.

Again, I think the best we can do at this point is move to more complex alphanumeric SSNs.


82 posted on 10/04/2017 12:17:33 PM PDT by ConservativeWarrior (Fall down 7 times, stand up 8. - Japanese proverb)
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To: AndyTheBear
They could try to use the public key as the id itself, but that is problematic and could cause transaction/syncing issues with all the other tables and various databases when one tries to change their key pair.

Key management is really the hardest thing about PK crypto. Even when you're careful about such things people get confused when you update a key. I generally put a 5-year expiration on my PGP key. Sometime in year 4 it is necessary to generate a new key. Then you sign it with the old key. Then you revoke the old. That keeps the trust between the old and the new. If you have a hard drive crash, and don't have a backup, there is no way to revoke the old. It's now out there forever with no way to call it back. Sure, you can generate a new key, but then you'll run into folks trying to use the old one, and you can't decrypt anything encrypted to the old public key.

Most of the above could be easily dealt with through software, but really can't do much against the inevitable hardware failure unless you are careful about keeping a spare copy of your keyring.

83 posted on 10/04/2017 12:18:57 PM PDT by zeugma (I live in the present due to the constraints of the Space-Time Continuum. —Hank Green)
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To: Red Badger

Doesn’t really matter what you call it or how you make it. It will still be a series of numbers that you wind up putting on a bunch of forms which will unlock your entire financial record and be stolen by bad guys.


84 posted on 10/04/2017 12:19:23 PM PDT by discostu (Things are in their place, The heavens are secure, The whole thing explodes in my face)
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To: Paladin2

And technically speaking it is not used for identification purposes. It has no photo or anything so it’s completely useless for that. It’s used for RECORD keeping, which in an entrenched bureaucracy is way more important.


85 posted on 10/04/2017 12:22:28 PM PDT by discostu (Things are in their place, The heavens are secure, The whole thing explodes in my face)
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To: ConservativeWarrior
Again, I think the best we can do at this point is move to more complex alphanumeric SSNs.

Just making it a hexadecimal number would increase space available for assignment. You can't make the number much larger though, as we know that it is difficult for folks to remember more than 7 digits. That's why the number is typically broken up the way it is. It makes it much easier to remember in chunks (yeah there are other reasons as well). Nine is actually pushing the limits of what the average person can easily deal with. I would really like to see it expanded to a 10 digit hex number anyway, with the last 'number' being a binary check bit. That would give us 68,719,476,735 plus a check bit. That should be enough for a while.

86 posted on 10/04/2017 12:50:21 PM PDT by zeugma (I live in the present due to the constraints of the Space-Time Continuum. —Hank Green)
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To: aspasia

Definite Beatles influence there.


87 posted on 10/04/2017 12:53:22 PM PDT by BenLurkin (The above is not a statement of fact. It is either satire or opinion. Or both.)
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To: AndyTheBear
Even if we had a chip that had a private key assigned at birth, and the chip malfunctioned, I don't think this would remedy the need for sometimes changing a person's key....it would just make it harder to change unless the chip could get a new key without surgery.

Yup. The only way that I can think of would be to start with your DNA, and have a token generate time-based session keys that you'd use to authenticate against a central database. Of course, that requires the government having a sample of every single person's DNA in a database. (Big can 'o worms there) What would happen in the case of identical twins?

A perfect solution to this probably doesn't actually exist. I think you're ultimately going to have to go to something token-based. But you'd have to be able to guard against it being effectively a bearer instrument. i.e., if this person has this key, he is that person. You need at least two factor authentication.

Given data the government already has by virtue of the 'real-id' act, you could actually implement something like this. Take a digital hash of your fingerprint and use that as a part of the token. The other would be a passphrase or something similar. You could also tie it to a specific phone number that a temporary pin could be sent to.

The problem would be resetting any of this. Let's say that you burned your fingers so that your fingerprint has changed. How do you prove you are you? Or you lose your token. Now you have to go get a new one, and you need to authenticate to get it. Hopefully the fingerprint would do it, but if both were damaged at the same time somehow, authenticating will become much harder for you.

Needless to say the whole issue is really a big can of worms.

88 posted on 10/04/2017 1:18:26 PM PDT by zeugma (I live in the present due to the constraints of the Space-Time Continuum. —Hank Green)
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To: zeugma
A perfect solution to this probably doesn't actually exist.

I agree. And I think James Madison would as well if were around to apply the observations he made on government to technical systems run by the government:

But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions.
--from Federalist 51

89 posted on 10/04/2017 1:48:45 PM PDT by AndyTheBear
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To: ConservativeWarrior; AndyTheBear; zeugma
"The difference is that the .gov would use their private key to sign ALL the IDs in the system."

"...if the .gov private key is compromised, all other issued keys would need to be revoked and replaced."


Why would the govt need to sign the public keys? Just publish them on a govt web site - no signing or management needed. Anybody and everybody can have your public key and they can't do anything with it that would allow them to impersonate you. They can send you an encrypted message with it that only you (with your private key) can decrypt but they can't send a message as you or sign a document as you.

AndyTheBear has it right as to how public/private keys would work as secure personal identifiers.

Zeugma has it right as to how "normal" people would be incapable of using and maintaining the security of such a system.
90 posted on 10/04/2017 3:03:45 PM PDT by Garth Tater (Gone Galt and I ain't coming back.)
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To: Red Badger

I remember getting my card circa 1963. “This card and the number cannot be used for Identification. It’s illegal to do so.”


91 posted on 10/04/2017 4:16:53 PM PDT by morphing libertarian (Imprison Obama, Clintons, Holder, lynch now.)
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To: Garth Tater
Why would the govt need to sign the public keys? Just publish them on a govt web site - no signing or management needed. Anybody and everybody can have your public key and they can't do anything with it that would allow them to impersonate you. They can send you an encrypted message with it that only you (with your private key) can decrypt but they can't send a message as you or sign a document as you.

You wouldn't necessarily need the government to do it, but to do need a way to validate keys. We already have an existing PKI infrastructure of sorts, though I've never really depended upon it in the public key servers. I have actually used it as a starting point for certain individuals that I wanted to have the public keys of, but given the way the web of trust works, you still have to manually (i.e., verbally) validate fingerprints. I've often thought the notary public system would actually be something that could be efficiently harnessed for this, but again, you run up into computer literacy/security issues.

92 posted on 10/04/2017 6:30:06 PM PDT by zeugma (I live in the present due to the constraints of the Space-Time Continuum. —Hank Green)
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To: zeugma
"You wouldn't necessarily need the government to do it, but to do need a way to validate keys."

If a public key is published on the govt site it's as validated as it needs to be for the purpose of this system. How could publishing a false public key for a person on other than the govt site be misused?

I'd hate to think of the feds trying to manage a system that required them to do anything more complicated than keep a list of citizens' public keys.
93 posted on 10/04/2017 6:49:30 PM PDT by Garth Tater (Gone Galt and I ain't coming back.)
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To: Garth Tater

And when the .gov’s private key is compromised, and it will be, the whole system collapses.

Remember when the Verisign private key was compromised 5 years ago? Their entire CA was made obsolete, and they had to revoke ALL certs ever issued through it.


94 posted on 10/05/2017 6:29:34 AM PDT by ConservativeWarrior (Fall down 7 times, stand up 8. - Japanese proverb)
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To: ConservativeWarrior
Kind of hard to forget, but my question was, "Why would the govt need to sign the public keys? Just publish them on a govt web site - no signing or management needed"

If the govt isn't signing the citizens' public keys then the govt has no need for a private key to do the signing with. If you can tell me a good reason to require the public keys to be signed by the govt (or anyone else) I'd love to hear it.
95 posted on 10/05/2017 10:59:29 AM PDT by Garth Tater (Gone Galt and I ain't coming back.)
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To: Garth Tater

“If you can tell me a good reason to require the public keys to be signed by the govt (or anyone else) I’d love to hear it.”


Who is going to be the issuing authority in this scenario? The government is. The government would be signing and issuing citizen IDs, using their private key. They will also use it to provide authentication and non-repudiation of citizens’ keys. (someone is going to need to validate the keys when a citizen attempts to authenticate with it)

Once they private key of the government authority server is compromised, the entire system collapses. Anyone would then be able to issue citizen identifiers. The .gov would have no choice but to revoke all previously issued citizen IDs, and we start from scratch.

My last post on this, because you’re just not getting it.


96 posted on 10/05/2017 11:13:18 AM PDT by ConservativeWarrior (Fall down 7 times, stand up 8. - Japanese proverb)
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To: ConservativeWarrior
" They will also use it to provide authentication and non-repudiation of citizens’ keys."

There is no need to authenitcate citizens' private keys. This is not a system that would be used for communication between unknown and untrusted parties where the only trust is provided by the keys. It is a system to be used with only one untrusted party (the citizen) that needs to be authenticated and the fact that his signed documents can be validated with his public key (that the govt knows is correct since they issued it) and that he can decrypt and respond to encrypted messages sent to him by the govt validates him and his private key to the govt.

I'm not even sure why you are bringing up non-repudiation of citizens' keys here. Do you really think you can tell the govt, "No, I didn't sign that" when the private key that they gave you was used to do the signing?


"Once they private key of the government authority server is compromised, the entire system collapses. Anyone would then be able to issue citizen identifiers"

Again, there is no need for the govt to have a private key as there is no need for them to sign the public keys. Those keys are "good" because the govt says they are and the only "good" keys are posted on the govt's website. This is not a public system that will be used between unknown/untrusted parties - which is the point you are not taking into consideration when you say that the public keys need to be signed.

And, even it you threw an unneeded govt private key into the mix, what good would it do for a hacker to issue "citizen identifiers" if the corresponding public key was not posted on the government's website? If the public key is not on the govt website it is invalid. If it is on the govt website it is valid. One side of this relationship is trusted by definition - the govt is always a trusted party in this relationship simply because they say they are.
97 posted on 10/05/2017 12:01:10 PM PDT by Garth Tater (Gone Galt and I ain't coming back.)
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To: Paladin2

Good one LOL


98 posted on 10/09/2017 11:28:56 AM PDT by democratsaremyenemy (Streepisacreep)
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