Posted on 09/20/2013 4:29:03 AM PDT by spirited irish
“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son” (1 John 2:22).
“And the fifth angel sounded the trumpet, and I saw a star fall from heaven upon the earth, and there was given to him the key of the bottomless pit." (Rev. 9:1)
In his Concise Commentary Matthew Henry identifies falling stars as tepid, indecisive, weak or apostate clergy who,
"Having ceased to be a minister of Christ, he who is represented by this star becomes the minister of the devil; and lets loose the powers of hell against the churches of Christ."
John identifies antichrists, in this case clergy who serve the devil rather than Christ, sequentially. First, like Bultmann, Teilhard de Chardin, Robert Funk, Paul Tillich, and John Shelby Spong, they specifically deny the living, personal Holy Trinity in favor of Gnostic pagan, immanent or Eastern pantheist conceptions. Though God the Father Almighty in three Persons upholds the souls of men and maintains life and creation, His substance is not within nature (space-time dimension) as pantheism maintains, but outside of it. Sinful men live within nature and are burdened by time and mortality; God is not.
Second, the specific denial of the Father logically negates Jesus the Christ, the Word who was in the beginning (John 1), was with God, and is God from the creation of all things (1 John 1). In a pre-incarnate theophany, Jesus is the Angel who spoke “mouth to mouth” to Moses (Num. 12:6-9; John 9:20) and at sundry times and in many ways “spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, last of all…” (Hebrews 1:1) Jesus the Christ is the incarnate Son of God who is the life and light of men, who by His shed blood on the Cross died for the remission of all sins and bestowed the privilege of adoption on all who put their faith in Him.
Therefore, to deny the Holy Father is to logically deny the deity of Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God, hence,
“…every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist . . . and even now already is it in the world” (1 John 4:3).
According to Peter (2 Peter 2:1), falling stars will work among the faithful, teaching damnable heresies that deny the Lord, cause the fall of men into unbelief, and bring destruction upon themselves:
“The natural parents of modern unbelief turn out to have been the guardians of belief.” Many thinking people came at last “to realize that it was religion, not science or social change that gave birth to unbelief. Having made God more and more like man---intellectually, morally, emotionally---the shapers of religion made it feasible to abandon God, to believe simply in man.” (James Turner of the University of Michigan in “American Babylon,” Richard John Neuhaus, p. 95)
Falling Stars and Damnable Heresy
Almost thirty years ago, two well-respected social science scholars, William Sims Bainbridge and Rodney Stark found themselves alarmed by what they saw as a rising tide of irrationalism, superstition and occultism---channeling cults, spirit familiars, necromancers, Wiccans, Satanists, Luciferians, goddess worshippers, 'gay' shamans, Hermetic magicians and other occult madness at every level of society, particularly within the most influential--- Hollywood, academia and the highest corridors of political power.
Like many scientists, they were equally concerned by Christian opposition to naturalistic evolution. As is common in the science community, they assumed the cause of these social pathologies was somehow due to fundamentalism, their term for authentic Christian theism as opposed to liberalized Christianity. Yet to their credit, the research they undertook to discover the cause was conducted both scientifically and with great integrity. What they found was so startling it caused them to re-evaluate their attitude toward authentic Christian theism. Their findings led them to say:
"It would be a mistake to conclude that fundamentalists oppose all science (when in reality they but oppose) a single theory (that) directly contradicts the bible. But it would be an equally great mistake to conclude that religious liberals and the irreligious possess superior minds of great rationality, to see them as modern personalities who have no need of the supernatural or any propensity to believe unscientific superstitions. On the contrary...they are much more likely to accept the new superstitions. It is the fundamentalists who appear most virtuous according to scientific standards when we examine the cults and pseudo-sciences proliferating in our society today." ("Superstitions, Old and New," The Skeptical Inquirer, Vol. IV, No. 4; summer, 1980)
In more detail they observed that authentic ‘born again’ Christians are far less likely to accept cults and pseudoscientific beliefs while the irreligious and liberalized Christians (i.e., progressive Catholics, Protestant emergent, NAR, word faith, prosperity gospel) are open to unscientific notions. In fact, these two groups are most disposed toward occultism.
As Bainbridge and Stark admitted, evolution directly contradicts the Bible, beginning with the Genesis account of creation ex nihilo. This means that evolution is the antithesis of the Genesis account. For this reason, discerning Christians refuse to submit to the evolutionary thinking that has swept Western and American society. Nor do they accept the evolutionary theism brought into the whole body of the Church by weak, tepid, indecisive, or apostate clergy.
Over eighty years ago, Rev. C. Leopold Clarke wrote that priests who embrace evolution (evolutionary theists) are apostates from the ‘Truth as it is in Jesus.’ (1 John2:2) Rev. Clarke, a lecturer at a London Bible college, discerned that evolution is the antithesis to the Revelation of God in the Deity of Jesus Christ, thus it is the greatest and most active agent of moral and spiritual disintegration:
“It is a battering-ram of unbelief---a sapping and mining operation that intends to blow Religion sky-high. The one thing which the human mind demands in its conception of God, is that, being Almighty, He works sovereignly and miraculously---and this is the thing with which Evolution dispenses….Already a tremendous effect, on a wide scale has been produced by the impact of this teaching---an effect which can only be likened to the…collapse of foundations…” (Evolution and the Break-Up of Christendom, Philip Bell, creation.com, Nov. 27, 2012)
The faith of the Christian Church and of the average Christian has had, and still has, its foundation as much in the literal and historic meaning of Genesis, the book of beginnings revealed ‘mouth to mouth’ by the Angel to Moses, as in that of the person and deity of Jesus Christ. But how horrible a travesty of the sacred office of the Christian Ministry to see church leaders more eager to be abreast of the times, than earnestly contending for the Faith once delivered unto the saints (Jude 1:3). It is high time, said Rev. Clarke, that the Church,
“…. separated herself from the humiliating entanglement attending her desire to be thought up to date…What, after all, have custodians of Divine Revelation to do making terms with speculative Biology, which has….no message of comfort or help to the soul?” (ibid)
The primary tactic employed by priests eager to accommodate themselves and the Church to modern science and evolutionary thinking is predictable. It is the argument that evolution is entirely compatible with the Bible when we see Genesis, especially the first three chapters, in a non-literal, non-historical context. This is the argument embraced and advanced by mega-church pastor Timothy J. Keller.
With a position paper Keller published with the theistic evolutionary organization Bio Logos he joined the ranks of falling stars (Catholic and Protestant priests) stretching back to the Renaissance. Their slippery-slide into apostasy began when they gave into the temptation to embrace a non-literal, non-historical view of Genesis. (A response to Timothy Keller’s ‘Creation, Evolution and Christian Laypeople,” Lita Cosner, Sept. 9, 2010, creation.com)
This is not a heresy unique to modern times. The early Church Fathers dealt with this damnable heresy as well, counting it among the heretical tendencies of the Origenists. Fourth-century Fathers such as John Chrysostom, Basil the Great and Ephraim the Syrian, all of whom wrote commentaries on Genesis, specifically warned against treating Genesis as an unhistorical myth or allegory. John Chrysostom strongly warned against paying heed to these heretics,
“…let us stop up our hearing against them, and let us believe the Divine Scripture, and following what is written in it, let us strive to preserve in our souls sound dogmas.” (Genesis, Creation, and Early Man, Fr. Seraphim Rose, p. 31)
As St. Cyril of Alexandria wrote, higher theological, spiritual meaning is founded upon humble, simple faith in the literal and historic meaning of Genesis and one cannot apprehend rightly the Scriptures without believing in the historical reality of the events and people they describe. (ibid, Seraphim Rose, p. 40)
In the integral worldview teachings of the Fathers, neither the literal nor historical meaning of the Revelations of the pre-incarnate Jesus, the Angel who spoke to Moses, can be regarded as expendable. There are at least four critically important reasons why. First, to reduce the Revelation of God to allegory and myth is to contradict and usurp the authority of God, ultimately deny the deity of Jesus Christ; twist, distort, add to and subtract from the entire Bible and finally, to imperil the salvation of believers.
Scenarios commonly proposed by modern Origenists posit a cleverly disguised pantheist/immanent nature deity subject to the space-time dimension and forces of evolution. But as noted previously, it is sinful man who carries the burden of time, not God. This is a crucial point, for when evolutionary theists add millions and billions of zeros (time) to God they have transferred their own limitations onto Him. They have ‘limited’ God and made Him over in their own image. This is not only idolatrous but satanic.
Additionally, evolution inverts creation. In place of God’s good creation from which men fell there is an evolutionary escalator starting at the bottom with matter, then progressing upward toward life, then up and through the life and death of millions of evolved creatures that preceded humans by millions of years until at long last an apish humanoid emerges into which a deity that is always in a state of becoming (evolving) places a soul.
Evolution amputates the entire historical precedent from the Gospel and makes Jesus Christ unnecessary as the atheist Frank Zindler enthusiastically points out:
“The most devastating thing that biology did to Christianity was the discovery of biological evolution. Now that we know that Adam and Eve never were real people the central myth of Christianity is destroyed. If there never was an Adam and Eve, there never was an original sin. If there never was an original sin there is no need of salvation. If there is no need of salvation there is no need of a saviour. And I submit that puts Jesus…into the ranks of the unemployed. I think evolution absolutely is the death knell of Christianity.” (“Atheism vs. Christianity,” 1996, Lita Cosner, creation.com, June 13, 2013)
None of this was lost on Darwin’s bulldog, Thomas Henry Huxley (1825-1985). Huxley was thoroughly familiar with the Bible, thus he understood that if Genesis is not the authoritative Word of God, is not historical and literal despite its’ symbolic and poetic elements, then the entirety of Scripture becomes a collection of fairytales resulting in tragic downward spiraling consequences as the Catholic Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation makes clear in part:
“By denying the historical truth of the first chapters of Genesis, theistic evolutionism has fostered a preoccupation with natural causes almost to the exclusion of supernatural ones. By denying the several supernatural creative acts of God in Genesis, and by downplaying the importance of the supernatural activity of Satan, theistic evolutionists slip into a naturalistic mentality which seeks to explain everything in terms of natural causes. Once this mentality takes hold, it is easy for men to regard the concept of spiritual warfare as a holdover from the days of primitive superstition. Diabolical activity is reduced to material or psychological causes. The devil and his demons come to be seen as irrelevant. Soon ‘hell’ joins the devil and his demons in the category of antiquated concepts. And the theistic evolutionist easily makes the fatal mistake of thinking that he has nothing more to fear from the devil and his angels. According to Fr. Gabriele Amorth, the chief exorcist of Rome, there is a tremendous increase in diabolical activity and influence in the formerly Christian world. And yet most of the bishops of Europe no longer believe in the existence of evil spirits….To the Fathers of the Church who believed in the truth of Genesis, this would be incredible. But in view of the almost universal acceptance of theistic evolution, it is hardly surprising.” (The Difference it makes: The Importance of the Traditional Doctrine of Creation, Hugh Owen, kolbecenter.org)
Huxley had ‘zero’ respect for modern Origenists and received enormous pleasure from heaping piles of hot coals and burning contempt upon them, thereby exposing their shallow-reasoning, hypocrisy, timidity, fear of non-acceptance, and unfaithfulness. With sarcasm dripping from his words he quipped,
“I am fairly at a loss to comprehend how any one, for a moment, can doubt that Christian theology must stand or fall with the historical trustworthiness of the Jewish Scriptures. The very conception of the Messiah, or Christ, is inextricably interwoven with Jewish history; the identification of Jesus of Nazareth with that Messiah rests upon the interpretation of passages of the Hebrew Scriptures which have no evidential value unless they possess the historical character assigned to them. If the covenant with Abraham was not made; if circumcision and sacrifices were not ordained by Jahveh; if the “ten words” were not written by God’s hand on the stone tables; if Abraham is more or less a mythical hero, such as Theseus; the story of the Deluge a fiction; that of the Fall a legend; and that of the creation the dream of a seer; if all these definite and detailed narratives of apparently real events have no more value as history than have the stories of the regal period of Rome—what is to be said about the Messianic doctrine, which is so much less clearly enunciated? And what about the authority of the writers of the books of the New Testament, who, on this theory, have not merely accepted flimsy fictions for solid truths, but have built the very foundations of Christian dogma upon legendary quicksands?” (Darwin’s Bulldog---Thomas Huxley, Russell Grigg, creation.com, Oct. 14, 2008)
Pouring more contempt on them he asked,
“When Jesus spoke, as of a matter of fact, that "the Flood came and destroyed them all," did he believe that the Deluge really took place, or not? It seems to me that, as the narrative mentions Noah’s wife, and his sons’ wives, there is good scriptural warranty for the statement that the antediluvians married and were given in marriage; and I should have thought that their eating and drinking might be assumed by the firmest believer in the literal truth of the story. Moreover, I venture to ask what sort of value, as an illustration of God’s methods of dealing with sin, has an account of an event that never happened? If no Flood swept the careless people away, how is the warning of more worth than the cry of “Wolf” when there is no wolf? If Jonah’s three days’ residence in the whale is not an “admitted reality,” how could it “warrant belief” in the “coming resurrection?” … Suppose that a Conservative orator warns his hearers to beware of great political and social changes, lest they end, as in France, in the domination of a Robespierre; what becomes, not only of his argument, but of his veracity, if he, personally, does not believe that Robespierre existed and did the deeds attributed to him?” (ibid)
Concerning Matthew 19:5:
“If divine authority is not here claimed for the twenty-fourth verse of the second chapter of Genesis, what is the value of language? And again, I ask, if one may play fast and loose with the story of the Fall as a “type” or “allegory,” what becomes of the foundation of Pauline theology?” (ibid)
And concerning Cor. 15:21-22:
“If Adam may be held to be no more real a personage than Prometheus, and if the story of the Fall is merely an instructive “type,” comparable to the profound Promethean mythus, what value has Paul’s dialectic?” (ibid)
After much thought, C.S. Lewis concluded that evolution is the central, most radical lie at the center of a vast network of lies within which modern Westerners are entangled while Rev. Clarke identifies the central lie as the Gospel of another Spirit. The fiendish aim of this Spirit is to help men lose God, not find Him, and by contradicting the Divine Redeemer, compromising Priests are serving this Spirit and its’ diabolical purposes. To contradict the Divine Redeemer is the very essence of unfaithfulness, and that it should be done while reverence is professed,
“…. is an illustration of the intellectual and moral topsy-turvydom of Modernism…’He whom God hath sent speaketh the Words of God,’ claimed Christ of Himself (John 3:34), and no assumption of error can hold water in the face of that declaration, without blasphemy.” Evolutionary theists are serving the devil, therefore “no considerations of Christian charity, of tolerance, of policy, can exonerate Christian leaders or Churches who fail to condemn and to sever themselves from compromising, cowardly, shilly-shallying priests”---the falling stars who “challenge the Divine Authority of Jesus Christ.” (ibid)
The rebuttals, warnings and counsels of the Fathers against listening to Origenists (and their modern evolutionary counterparts) indicates that the spirit of antichrist operating through modern rationalistic criticism of the Revelation of God is not a heresy unique to our times but was inveighed against by early Church Fathers.
From the scholarly writings of the Eastern Orthodox priest, Fr. Seraphim Rose, to the incisive analysis, rebuttals and warnings of the Catholic Kolbe Center, creation.com, Creation Research Institute, Rev. Clarke, and many other stalwart defenders of the faith once delivered, all are a clear, compelling call to the whole body of the Church to hold fast to the traditional doctrine of creation as it was handed down from the Apostles, for as God spoke and Jesus is the Living Word incarnate, it is incumbent upon the faithful to submit their wills to the Divine Will and Authority of God rather than to the damnable heresy proffered by falling stars eager to embrace naturalistic science and the devil's antithesis--- evolution. But if it seem evil to you to serve the Lord,
“…you have your choice: choose this day that which pleases you, whom you would rather serve….but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15
I ask of you the same forbearance and respect for those who, historically and today, have seen it differently.
***Such a thing is too much to ask from God Himself, clad in human flesh. Jesus called false teachers like you ‘sons of satan’ but you would ask FReepers for their forbearance and respect. You ask more of FReepers than God expected of Himself. You are properly labelled a God damned heretic.
I am merely asking your same forbearance and respect for those who read the New Testament correctly.
***Correctly? Your reading is heretical. Such a thing is too much to ask from God Himself, clad in human flesh. Jesus called false teachers like you ‘sons of satan’ but you would ask FReepers for their forbearance and respect. You ask more of FReepers than God expected of Himself. You are properly labelled a God damned heretic.
14,700 times
***Gee, where do you get that figure, other than by stalking me across threads?
Why are you aligning yourself with a pantheist? There is only one God. Judaism and Christianity agree on that. Or is your monotheistic judaism so cheap that you can throw it under the bus just for the chance to harass another Freeper?
Up till now, I've shied away from trying to explain John 1, for the simple reason I do not feel qualified, and doubted if you'd agree with my explanation anyway -- so what is the point?
However, that explanation is essential to this one, so... here goes:
Summarizing: "God's Word" (Logos) is God's Plan.
"Word made flesh" means God's Plan actualized.
"In the Beginning was the Word" means: God planned for Jesus, from the beginning.
So, a reference to Jesus as "First and last", refers to his existence as God's Plan from beginning to end -- alpha to omega.
We know that the speaker in Revelation 1:18 is not God Himself because he says: "I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore."
God cannot die, so that is Jesus talking.
How we get there, I grant you, is a fine line to draw, and many can't or won't see it.
Quoting from my Reference (see post #2,482), p174: "There is no doubt that for the early Christians Jesus had the value and reality of God.
This, however, does not mean they thought Jesus "was God".
They go on to say:
"We suggest that we should first see if John can be readily understood in terms of his otherwise very Jewish approach.
Why should we attempt to read John as though he were a student of the Jew Philo or of Gentile mystery religion?
Why should John be claimed as a supporter of the dogmatic conclusions of the much later church councils?
Should we not make sense of him from the Old Testament world of ideas?
'What we do know,' says a leading Bible scholar, 'is that John was steeped in the Old Testament Scriptures.
If we wish to understand the historical ancestry of John's Logos [word] concept as he himself understood it, we have to go back to those Scriptures.' "
Their conclusion is that earliest Christians saw Jesus as divinity, "the value and reality of God" , but not as Israel's God Himself.
In Jewish terms Jesus was God's Messiah/Christ, God's Logos-Word-Plan, God's intention from the Beginning.
That's why there is no explicitly Trinitarian language in the New Testament -- i.e., no words like "trinity", "God the Son", "God the Holy Spirit" or language that speaks of a "God-Head" of "three persons" & "one substance".
The modern term for Christians who try to see Jesus as his first followers did is "restorationists".
They have much in common with our Founders' Unitarianism, deism/theism and Freemason ideas.
They can be summarized by the term, "non-Trinitarian Christianity".
I believe they should be treated with forbearance and respect, especially on Free Republic's News/Activism threads.
redleghunter: "Upon further review from the 'booth', you lose a timeout."
Despite your infinitely inflated sense in self-importance, FRiend, you are not the "booth".
That would be God.
In this analogy: you redleghunter, are nothing but a sports team, playing to win the Big Game.
When two teams compete on a level playing-field, one plays to win, the other, if victory seems impossible, plays for respect as a worthy competitor.
I am here to ask for forbearance and respect for those, such as our Founders & today's "restorationists", who have historically expressed no interest or belief in the Trinitarian version of Christianity.
FRiend, repeating your false accusations does not make them any less false.
I am here to ask for forbearance and respect...
***Such a thing is too much to ask from God Himself, clad in human flesh. Jesus called false teachers like you ‘sons of satan’ but you would ask FReepers for their forbearance and respect. You ask more of FReepers than God expected of Himself. You are properly labelled a God damned heretic.
Sir you ignored the comparative texts. By your reasoning there would be more than one “First and Last.” That would mean two separate Deities. You keep saying “divine” but you were presented Colossians 2:9.
AS God Jesus Christ could not die, and that is the reason for the Incarnation. Spend time in prayer for the answer.
Your impotent and unholy Jesus makes about as much sense as Christian cannibalism.
Delightful read, sir. I’m not certain if I like you better as a historian or a scriptorian!
You are very thoughtful and tolerant. The religion threads generate a lot of heat, but very little light. I’m surprised at the number of dedicated and sincere Christians who deny the plain words of the Bible because it contradicts their chosen dogma. You are a bright light. Keep calm and carry on. ;-]
OT naming conventions were very important and very meaningful. Remember that Israel, the people, rejected Yahweh being their melek. They wanted human kings like all the other countries. Think of the foreshadowning to when Jesus came in the flesh and the remnant, Judah, rejected their Savior. That Isaiah verse is pregnant with meaning.
The interpretation I've presented and defended is that "First and Last" refers to Israel's God, Yahweh, or to God's plan (logos) for Jesus.
That is not two deities, it's one Deity with a Big Idea -- Jesus.
redleghunter: "You keep saying “divine” but you were presented Colossians 2:9."
But the issue there is not "Deity", it's "fullness".
And every time, without fail, I have referred you to the same "fullness" in Ephesians 3:19, which speaks of Christians' "fullness".
Plus, "fullness" appears in other verses (Ephesians 4:13, Collosians 3:10) where it refers to spiritual fullness, not one-becoming-the-other.
The fact remains that of all seven+ New Testament authors, the Trinity doctrine rests almost entirely on John's writings, and without John, there's no serious case to be made for it.
The question then remains: was John himself a real Trinitarian?
I think the case can be made and defended that he was not.
I am here to ask your forbearance and respect for those who believe the same way.
The oldest creed, the Apostles' Creed (circa 180 AD), says that Jesus:
Yes, I agree that much later creeds -- i.e., Nicaene, Athanasian -- blur or fuzzy-up the question.
But there can be no doubt whatever that the earliest Christians believed Jesus died on the cross.
Therefore, Jesus was not God Himself.
And does that not tell you something important about the religious beliefs of our Founding Fathers, like George Washington, who always (or nearly always) refused to take communion?
Sir, you misunderstand if you think I reject Trinitarianism entirely.
I have posted here now many times that I think Trinitarianism is a reasonable interpretation, but not the only one, and that historically the earliest Christians did not believe Trinitarian ideas.
Yes, they believed in Christ's divinity/deity, but did not see Jesus as God Himself.
Clearly, Jesus' earliest followers were not particularly troubled by such transcendental issues as might concern highly educated Greek theologians.
I am here to defend those who tried to see Jesus as his earliest followers did, and to request forbearance and respect for them on Free Republic News/Activism threads.
Thanks so much for your most kind words.
They are hugely appreciated!
And no matter how many times you are presented the fullness of the Godhead in Colossians 2:9 is not the same as Ephesians 3:19.
Of course it is, but you of course are free to deny it all you wish, and to believe whatsoever you desire about it.
I'm only asking your forbearance & respect for those who read these verses correctly.
I’m only asking your forbearance & respect for those who read these verses correctly.
***Your reading is heretical. You’re asking for forbearance & respect for pushing a heresy onto FR. Jesus didn’t have forbearance nor respect for false teachers, calling them “sons of satan”; so neither should we.
Forbearance & respect...
*** You’re asking for forbearance & respect for pushing a heresy onto FR. Jesus didn’t have forbearance nor respect for false teachers, calling them “sons of satan”; so neither should we.
Forbearance & respect...
*** You’re asking for forbearance & respect for pushing a heresy onto FR. Jesus didn’t have forbearance nor respect for false teachers, calling them “sons of satan”; so neither should we.
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