Posted on 10/24/2012 9:38:38 AM PDT by Altariel
Indiana Republican Senate candidate Richard Mourdock is standing by his statement that when a woman becomes pregnant during a rape "that's something God intended." He says some people have twisted his comment.
Mourdock said in a news conference Wednesday that he abhors any sexual violence and regrets it if his comment during a debate Tuesday night left another impression.
Mourdock, who's been locked in one of the country's most expensive and closely watched Senate races, was asked during the final minutes of the debate whether abortion should be allowed in cases of rape or incest.
"I struggled with it myself for a long time, but I came to realize that life is that gift from God. And, I think, even when life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen," Mourdock said.
Mourdock became the second GOP Senate candidate to find himself on the defensive over comments about rape and pregnancy. Missouri Senate candidate Rep. Todd Akin said in August that women's bodies have ways of preventing pregnancy in cases of what he called "legitimate rape." Since his comment, Akin has repeatedly apologized but has refused to leave his race despite calls to do so by leaders of his own party, from GOP presidential hopeful Mitt Romney on down.
(Excerpt) Read more at chicagotribune.com ...
Why should that seat be lost? Because voters are afraid of somebody who believes that God is the author of life and that He brings good even out of bad?
If we’re afraid of people who believe that, then this nation is sunk with or without an R in that seat. And THAT is what I will lament, if I need to lament anything.
Some lack the conviction to stand up for what is right.
The GOP needs to pay a “security consultant” to taser these guys whenever they even mention “rape”. Jeeze—how stupid do you have to be?
“life” writ large is the “gift of G-d”
that’s what all creation is
but G-d allowed/allows humans and our free will to use what G-d’s creation gives us, which includes our reproductive capabilities - yes, our free will (or, maybe you’re a Muslim and believe (as Muslims do) that we do not have, that G-d did not give us, free will)
that does not make every individual instance of life that humans create a “gift of G-d”, because G-d is not micromanaging all our individual moment-to-moment decisions, “life bearing” and otherwise
You believe that there are people walking around whose very lives are not a gift from the Creator?
Cripplecreek’s niece is not a gift from the Lord? She’s just an accident created by a rapist that G-d will muster up the goodwill to love anyway?
I don’t understand what you’re saying. All a man can do is put his sperm in a position to fertilize an egg; whether it does or doesn’t is beyond his control. Man does not create life. Only G-d can create life. It’s not an automatic thing that has to happen if all the variables are just right - like a building falling down if a plane flies into it, or gasoline exploding in the presence of fire. All the variables can be right, and sometimes conception will occur and sometimes not.
Sorry.
He made an idiotic, insensitive statement.
God didn’t ALLOW WW2 to happened.
God ALLOWSs us to have FREE CHOICE. SOME people DECIDED to ABUSE that free choice by creating the circumstances which led to WW2.
The kind of argument you are making is like saying Gun Manufacturers ALLOW crime to happen because they sell guns to people who choose to use them to committ crimes.
This guy is an idiot and instead of apologizing, as Aken had the prudence to do, he REINFORCED his idiocy and insensitivity by what he said.
I don’t support abortion. As a biologist and Christian I KNOW life begins AT THE MOMENT OF CONCEPTION.
But in cases of rape or incest or to save the life of the mother I most certainly WOULD allow it. If some woman freely CHOOSES to give birth in such circumstances, that is HER choice and to her credit I suppose.
But NO WOMAN should be FORCED to bear the child of a rapist or endanger her own life in delivery.
If I had to chose between the life of my wife or an unborn child - admittedly a RARE occassion today - there is NO WAY I would agree to loose my wife.
When a child dies, a person gets cancer, or a plane crashes, good people grieve and take comfort in the notion that God has a plan, and we submit to his will. Those who are upset by Mourdock’s comments give themselves away as people who have no faith in God.
“In the middle of the destruction of 9-11 the rubble formed a cross. Many viewed that as the Lord giving a sign of comfort in the middle of the sorrow and destruction. If somebody said that the appearance of that cross at that place and time was a gift from the Lord, would they be saying that the terrorist attack was G-d’s gift also? Or can the Lord allow something bad - that He hates - to happen but put a blessing right in the middle of it anyway?”
No, I don’t believe “G-d caused” any cross-connected segments of the steel girdirs of the twin towers to remain visible in the rubble, in any special way (many such instances actually occurred down through the rubble as could naturally be expected by the structure of the damaged buildings) - anymore than I believe that what some say appeard to be an image of Christ in a piece of baked-pastry to be an act of G-d.
We can see the resemblences of many images that are dear to our faith, and that’s what they are - resemblences. The “gift of G-d” is our faith, and the images remind us of that gift - our faith, and it is for THAT reason the images have meaning to us, that we appreciate them and ON REFLECTION OF WHAT THEY INSPIRE IN US FROM OUR FAITH (NOT BECAUSE ANY ICON SHOULD BE CONSIDERED GODLY) that we appreciate them.
Is that cross-connected section of girdirs important to many of us? Yes. Because G-d micromanged it to be there? No - because it - the image - is a reminder of the strength many of us sought from G-d at the time as well as the peace G-d helped many of us find at the time, and because those things come from our faith, the faith the image reminds us of. The “gift” again is our faith, not the steel girdirs. Men put them up and evil men knocked them down.
“Cripplecreek’s niece is not a gift from the Lord? She’s just an accident created by a rapist that G-d will muster up the goodwill to love anyway?”
G-d does not have to “muster up the goodwill” to love any of us, even if we are conceived in a test-tube (talk about man’s use of free will!!! yikes).
When I say that God allows some things to happen, I don’t mean that in a way that could be illustrated by gun sellers. God has powers that gun sellers don’t. He can either allow normal cause-and-effect to take place, or he can intervene to overrule normal cause-and-effect. WWII happened because people made bad choices and God did not miraculously cause all the ammunition to rot before Hitler could use it. God allowed people’s choices to lead to their “natural” conclusion. He didn’t want WWII. He didn’t intervene to stop it.
In most cases that is what God does, since that gives predictability to our world and also reinforces the principle of responsibility.
In some instances He does the miracle.
Conception is not automatic. All the variables can be right, and sometimes conception will occur and sometimes not. I can’t prove anything, but I do believe that every time a human life is conceived it is the work of God.
I don’t understand it all. I don’t understand why lives are created that die at 12 weeks gestation (like my 4th child) or why they are created and die at 42 weeks gestation (like my first child). I don’t understand why some children are created with features that make life difficult or painful.
I have seen enough of life, though, to believe that struggles are not the worst thing that could happen to us. Sometimes the best things come out of hardships. Muscle is built through pain. A woman who has been raped does not have to hate or fear her child. She can know that her child is precious and that God is able to bless her even through pain. I think that is what Mourdock was talking about.
Should she have to let her child live? It’s not just the rapist’s child; it is also HER child, biologically speaking, and that does have legal ramifications as well. Can the law compel her to provide her womb for that child to live in, when she never consented to anything that led to the child being placed there? A person could argue either way on a legal basis.
If we view the child as an intruder who had no choice in being where he/she was, it would be sort of like a kidnapper who takes a child hostage and puts him in your house. Because that hostage child is in your house and you never gave them permission the law might say you could shoot the kid and haul the dead body out so you have your house back. If we don’t worry about the child having no choice in being created, it would be like somebody choosing to invade your house so you shoot them and get your house back.
If we assume that a person is guaranteed against anything bad resulting from circumstances beyond their control, then it doesn’t legally matter what it costs somebody else to make the outcome “fair”.
Take that view to its conclusion though. If an arsonist sets fire to my house and I am guaranteed to have a house because I never consented to have my house burned down, I could legally take my neighbor’s house, to keep me from having homelessness forced upon me against my will.
Do you see the problem? The problem is that we have 2 innocent people who face a danger they never chose - and the question is whether one person’s autonomy/self-determination trumps the other’s life. Legally, what do we say? Is there a hierarchy of rights, or are some rights absolute whether or not anybody else loses other rights through the practice of your own? How do you understand the law?
In an instance where the mother will die, the child will be lost also if the mother dies. So it’s an issue of whether you try to save one life rather than lose them both. Legally, that issue is self-defense and I don’t think many people would deny the right of self-defense. I have a friend who says the right thing to do would be to trust God, but that may be different than what should be allowed LEGALLY. I have a friend who was told to choose whether to save his wife or his child. He told the doctor, “Both”, and by God’s grace both were saved. That doesn’t always happen though.
I wonder what would happen if a rapist was required to pay a living wage and child support to any woman who chose to bear the child conceived through his crime - together with a guarantee that he would never make contact with her or the child without their consent. Would that make any difference to what you think/feel about the burden placed upon the woman against her will?
Do you believe that G-d ever intervenes in life? I think what we’re getting at here is basic epistemology. Do you believe as the Deists did - that G-d created the world and then left it to run according to the scientific laws that are in effect, and that’s all we have now?
When all the variables are right for conception to occur and yet it doesn’t, would you say there must have been some tiny microscopic thing that wasn’t quite right after all? Or why does it occur sometimes and not others?
“Man does not create life. Only G-d can create life. It’s not an automatic thing that has to happen if all the variables are just right - like a building falling down if a plane flies into it, or gasoline exploding in the presence of fire. All the variables can be right, and sometimes conception will occur and sometimes not.”
Correction - man did not create “life” (creation, the universe and all that’s in it) G-d created creation and in it what we call “life”, which in the most literal sense actually includes all that we think of as “dead”.
“Life” is what is in us and reflected through us. It is all, all of it G-d’s gift, NOT this or that independently, specially and particularly - all of it.
But, G-d does not micromanage what we do with it, including reproduction - with the single exception of Christ!!!
I believe the life of everyone walking around is a “gift of G-d” because life itself - ALL OF IT - is a gift of G-d; all of us are part of it, none of us are special in this respect.
I’m not sure where you disagree with what the politician said then. Is it with the intention of G-d? That life is G-d’s gift but He never meant to give it?
By “that life” I mean the life of the child conceived after rape.
“Do you believe that G-d ever intervenes in life?”
I believe G-d does, but I also believe that that is not what G-d does most of the time - intervene, and that most of the time when G-d does intervene few, including those whom G-d is acting upon, realize it; which is why it is arrogant for us, simply when and because our faith is so strong, to declare that G-d has intervened when in fact - most of the time - G-d did not make us aware of that.
I beleive we must be guided by our personal relationship with G-d in these things, not mere theological ideas.
No - it’s that all life is special, and a gift, not just one, not just some; it is collective gift “LIFE”; it is not special to me or you; it is simply special to all of us because it - “life” - is G-ds creation and we are blessed to be a part of it.
But, do I believe, that G-d watched and said (in every instance) - “now let me see, shall I allow this rape (or any act of human intercourse) to result in human conception, or not, hmmmm??”.....No.
Perhaps not every instance is an intervention, but if you believe the Bible, you can see in Genesis 29:31 where it says, “When the LORD saw that Leah was not loved, he opened her womb, but Rachel was barren.”
Later on in Gen 30:1-2 it says, “When Rachel saw that she was not bearing Jacob any children, she became jealous of her sister. So she said to Jacob, “Give me children, or I’ll die!” Jacob became angry with her and said, “Am I in the place of God, who has kept you from having children?”
Scripture also says that the cast of every lot is determined by the Lord. In fact, that’s how the Israelites found out what the Lord wanted them to do: they used the urim and the thummin - stones for “yes” and “no”.
There is also Scripture which says that in all things G-d is working for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purposes.
I just see all over Scripture where the details of life are held in the Lord’s hands. The story that soonest comes to mind is Joseph who, after he met up with his brothers, consoled them by saying that though they had put him in the dry well and sold him in Egypt in order to harm him, G-d had meant it for good. So even though Joseph’s brothers made their own choices, G-d used those bad choices to bring about some greater good.
And some of His purposes are mentioned in Scripture too. For instance, we are told that we are comforted in our sorrows so that we will be able to comfort others with the same comfort we have received. I have thought of that many, many times as I realize how the loss of 2 children has shaped me to be able to minister to others who have experienced loss.
Mary conceived without any sperm. Her cousin Elizbeth at the same time conceived even though she was beyond child-bearing years. Both children were miraculous, though one was through “natural” means of conception and the other impossible in nature. Nothing is impossible with Him.
We have no way of knowing or proving which instances are interventions and which not, but I see in Scripture that G-d is involved in even very small details in our lives, and sometimes what seems terrible to us is part of a bigger plan.
The Lord didn’t force Judas to betray Jesus. It was Judas’ decision to do so. But G-d did foresee it and did cause the greatest good in the whole history of the world to come as a result of Judas’ sin.
There is no human being who can diminish our real human dignity and worth. No human being who has the power to destroy our life. Nobody can do to us anything except what the Lord allows. It’s usually not what He WANTS, but He and His grace can handle whatever bad comes to us in life. We are crushed but never in despair. If we think that a rapist can defeat or diminish us, we misunderstand who man is and we misunderstand who G-d is. That’s why Jesus said in the beatitudes that the people who are perceived as low and trampled are actually blessed. We’ve been given a greater gift that nobody can take away just by raping us, killing us, or stealing from us.
That’s really a message of joy. Why would anybody not want to know that they are not alone and that G-d makes good even when others give us bad?
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