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Queen to Unveil WWII Monument in London: Germans Grudgingly Accept Bomber Memorial
Der Spiegel ^ | 06/25/2012 | David Crossland in Berlin

Posted on 06/25/2012 2:55:04 PM PDT by Olog-hai

The planned unveiling in London of a memorial to the 55,573 Royal Air Force Bomber Command airmen killed in World War II has sparked muted criticism in Germany, where many regard the Allied air raids that destroyed entire cities and killed over 500,000 civilians as unjustified and criminal.

Helma Orosz, the mayor of Dresden, which was devastated in an Allied attack in February 1945, criticized the plans for the monument when they first became public in 2010, and spoke to London Mayor Boris Johnson about it.

"The planned memorial triggered astonishment in Dresden and was judged critically by us in diplomatic terms," she told SPIEGEL ONLINE. "I am pleased that this exchange of views led to the monument now featuring an inscription commemorating the victims of the bombing war. The objections many people in Germany had to such a memorial have been taken seriously and I welcome this very much. It's a further gesture of reconciliation between Britain and Germany." …

The bombing raids were a response to German attacks on British cities and were stepped up massively in the summer of 1944 after the D-Day landings. Their aim was to destroy Germany's military machinery and to crush public morale.

Many Germans believe that Dresden, where up to 25,000 people were killed in the Feb. 13 raid that caused a firestorm, symbolizes the ruthlessness and pointlessness of a bombing campaign that failed to break their spirit or bring their industry to its knees. …

(Excerpt) Read more at spiegel.de ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Germany; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: accept; bombardment; bomber; germans; grudgingly; london; memorial; monument; queen; raf; unveil; wwii
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To: dfwgator; Romulus; dead; pfflier; Vermont Lt
now, now dfwgator, Warsaw was not reduced to ashes -- ok, the ghetto area was reduced to ashes, burned to the ground, nothing standing more than a foot (and the ghetto area was 20% of the city), but the rest, the Germans were nice enough to leave rubble, rubble and nothing but rubble. By the end of the Uprising, 70 to 80% of the city was rubble, not even skeletons of buildings or churches left standing

Let the Mayor of Dresden come to Warsaw and visit the Warsaw uprising museum.

101 posted on 06/26/2012 5:32:23 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: docbnj
I'm sorry, Japan was not ready to surrender. The mentality of the Japanese at that time, was discipline and utter obedience. They were able to subsist on lower quality of food without wanting to surrender.

The American military saw the results of this fanaticism in Okinawa when we lost a lot of men.

The way I see it, Truman had three choices: leave Japan surrounded or invade or drop the bomb and get them to surrender

Blockading the japanese would have resulted in more deaths by starvation than those killed and harmed over the decades by H and N

invading would have had a lot of our troops killed, yes even by civilians -- so it was an evil choice and he chose what would kill less american lives.

102 posted on 06/26/2012 5:38:56 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: docbnj
The bombings in Japan using the A-bomb were similarly war crimes. The only excuse is that they shortened the war (which was already essentially over, anyway). That is no excuse: it was still a war crime. It was also unnecessary, as Japan was in ruins, and on the verge of starvation. Japan was ready to surrender.

Utter nonsense. Have you ever read the invasion plan for Honshu? Millions would've been killed before our troops even set foot on the ground.

I'm sure it's very easy for you to condemn the use of nuclear weapons since you never had to fight the Japanese. Have you fought in any war?

103 posted on 06/26/2012 5:46:38 AM PDT by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: Olog-hai
Considering what the Germans did to the Russians and those whose Countries they occupied from 1939-45 they got off easy.

It is always beeb about what the "poor" Germans had done to them. No mention of the bombing of Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry or the actions of the "Special Police" Units that systemacially wiped out entire villages. Nor the death camps, nor the deliberate starving to death of between 250,000 and a million of Russian POWs. As far as I am concerned, they would have been justified to have wiped out the entire German race. The same with Japan for the way they treated our POWs.

Neither Germany nor Japan received half of what they deserved.

104 posted on 06/26/2012 5:54:44 AM PDT by sport
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To: Olog-hai; Noamie; docbnj

well, lets not pile on doc — he is right that war is hell and the Dresden bombing and N and H were not honorable. but the fact is that they were necessary to shorten the duration of the war.


105 posted on 06/26/2012 5:55:21 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos

If you were in the US Infantry and were waitng for the invasion of the Japanese home islands you would have thought about N and H differently.


106 posted on 06/26/2012 5:57:36 AM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Olog-hai
symbolizes the ruthlessness and pointlessness of a bombing campaign

The War that Germany started is best described by this statement.

107 posted on 06/26/2012 6:18:36 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Romney - not Obama - not a Conservative - not a real Christian)
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To: Cronos

Poles have two dates to remember: September 1st and September 17th.


108 posted on 06/26/2012 6:47:55 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Cronos

Miasto Ruin (City of Ruins)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrlE99I_Q9A


109 posted on 06/26/2012 6:53:09 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: the scotsman
The USAF bombed its own troops in WW2.

Technically untrue, since they hadn't formed yet, but point taken. In today's world of precision directed bombing within 10 feet of a target, it is hard to remember when being within the grid square was doing well.

110 posted on 06/26/2012 6:56:07 AM PDT by xone
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To: central_va

Not only that, but very likely had we not dropped the bomb, Japan would have been divided, like Germany and Korea, into Red Japan and Free Japan, and a war break out between the Reds and the American-supported section of Japan.


111 posted on 06/26/2012 6:57:50 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Cronos
I'm sorry, Japan was not ready to surrender.

If Tojo succeeded and offed Hirohito before the Emperor could make his radio address, it would have been a much different story.

112 posted on 06/26/2012 7:00:34 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: Cronos
he is right that war is hell and the Dresden bombing and N and H were not honorable

They certainly weren't dishonorable, at worst they were neutral necessary actions to end a bloody conflict.

113 posted on 06/26/2012 7:16:14 AM PDT by xone
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To: Cronos

I’m not inclined to make a determination on it. I wasn’t alive then and I’ve not studied the intricacies of the Japanese activity in that theater of war. I say that in the interest of openness, because I do know the general outline of what the Japanese did during the war. I don’t know all the intimate details, so I’d rather go a bit overboard with my disclaimer rather than claim I’m an expert or some such.

During the interview portion I heard, the author listed two nationalist groups that were used in this manner by the Japanese. That’s why I referenced my prior comments as I did. Who knows what other groups may have been used the same way. You may. I’m not trying to say you have no idea here.

The author did address the fact that the U. S. decided not to be open and frank about what the Japanese had done with regard to this subject.

I was just trying to put it out there for discussion. I myself was unaware of this.


114 posted on 06/26/2012 9:15:51 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (Remove all Democrats from the Republican party, and we won't have much Left, just a lot of Right.)
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To: publius911
Maybe these crybabies can erect a monument in the center of Berlin commemorating what they were really successful at: Killing 6 million helpless civilians in their German death camps

Ten million. Six million is only the Jewish victims, there were other then Jews in the camps as well.

And this leaves out the millions of handicapped Germans that they had killed in hospitals before the war.

They can cry me a river.

115 posted on 06/26/2012 9:52:32 AM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (Demons run when a good man goes to war)
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To: dfwgator; Romulus; DoughtyOne
Romulus -- during the German invasion of Poland the Luftwafe specifically attacked civilians and refugees fleeing along roads. The aim was to spread terror and destroy the morale of the Poles

Remember Hitler's "Armenian quote": . Accordingly, I have placed my death-head formation in readiness—for the present only in the East—with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. --> and the Germans followed it through pretty well. The length and breadth of this country you'll find little monuments saying "here xx number of Poles were killed by Germans" -- you'll even find it in out of the way forests.

The Germans don't like the Allied bombing of Dresden? tough... I have no sympathy for that...

116 posted on 06/26/2012 8:46:14 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos

An interesting theory as to why Hitler singled out the Poles, compared to the other Slavs, like Czechs or Slovaks....the theory is that since many Poles had a lot of Germanic blood in them as well, they were perceived as more of threat, so according to the Nazis, Poles and Germans simply could not co-exist. Note, the Nazis never employed Poles as guards at the death camps, although they did use other Slavs, such as Lithuanians and Ukrainians.......the Germans figured that the Poles would immediately fire on them if given rifles, they were probably right.


117 posted on 06/26/2012 8:53:47 PM PDT by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator
the German racial theory was full of holes to say the least. Poles, as you correctly point out have Germanic blood (and most Germans especially Prussians had Slavic blood. Yet the Germans persecuted the Poles and also slaughtered Gypsies (who have pure Aryan blood) and attacked Russians, again Aryans

At the same time they associated themselves with southern slavs like Bulgarians and Croats

It was pure convenience -- Poland was in the way, just as Poland was in the way of Russia

The problem with Poland is that it's not Germanic enough to fit in with the West, and not "Slavonic" enough to fit in with the east.

for that matter, the entire section of countries from Finland to Croatia fall into that basket, hence the proper need for Międzymorze.

118 posted on 06/27/2012 1:11:33 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Olog-hai
An interesting sidebar to this story. I just heard on the radio this morning that the French Ambassador is coming to my town today to present the Chevalier de la legion d'honneur to a local B-17 crewman:

"Francois Delattre, the French ambassador to the United States, will visit Lafayette and St. Martinville today and Friday as part of a high-profile trip that includes honoring a local World War II veteran for his role in helping liberate France from Nazi control."

119 posted on 06/28/2012 5:48:50 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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