Posted on 04/20/2010 11:26:05 AM PDT by FredDardick
It looks like somebody is going to have to update the Waco Siege page on Wikipedia. Apparently the whitewashed history that former President Bill Clinton would like us to believe regarding the 1993 federal assault on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, is missing important details regarding his own personal involvement.
In response to Bill Clinton’s highly publicized linking of the Tea Party movement to the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing in an op-ed piece for the New York Times, former Clinton adviser Dick Morris disclosed on Monday that it was Clinton himself, and not Attorney General Janet Reno, as Americans have been led to believe for the past 17 years, who called the shots during the 1993 botched invasion that led to the death of seventy-six people.
(Excerpt) Read more at canadafreepress.com ...
:)
I see that now. Thanks.
I am impressed with your persistence.
The original claim you make is that if Koresh had been an Islamic group, no one would defend him.
That is demonstrably false because of all the various kowtowing that is done to accommodate the false and frankly anti-muslim posing by the Left that makes heroes of Al Qaeda, Hamas, or any other Anti American entity. The complaints about waterboarding and panties on the head indicate that severe deference is provided in the public sphere for extremists interpreting Islam. These individuals are not to be treated harshly in any public sense. In fact, from the standpoint of the Left, to describe violent individuals as “terrorists” is explicitly inappropriate and among the deeper true reasons why these misunderstood souls engage in violence.
Had Koresh been an Islamic cleric, President Obama, the SLC, and a variety of major organizations would have urged us all to ‘not rush to judgment’ Specialist sensitive to alleged muslim grievances would have been brought in to validate, promote and encourage the public expression of the various fatwas that were being argued by the group.
Church State separation is the root metaphor of hostility that the Left is using on its right wing Chistians colleagues. Christians are rhetorically constructed as dangerous and must be kept behind walls. Muslims need to be understood and incorporating their beliefs into public school curriculum is for example a valuable exercise in multicultural understanding— even though it plainly violates dozens of Leftist court decisions designed to silence the most remote expressions of Christianity in public settings.
These arguments preclude your claim about how if Koresh were Muslim we would be fine with the government hostility.
Sleep well.
That’s one of my favorite pics! Hadn’t seen it in a while. Thanks!
I do not believe this is factually possible.
No, that's not what I said. I said that if Koresh had been Muslim, on a Muslim compound the people who are defending him today, wouldn't be defending him. I'm sure that there would be scores of people on the kooky left that would have embraced all the conspiracy theories, just like they did on 9/11.
What I said was true, and continues to be true. There are search warrants issued in the WOT every day that are served on all kinds of Muslims, virtually without incident. Many of these warrants have been for locations that were Mosques. If you can show me a thread from FR that complains about the service of these search warrants on Mosques and Muslims, please link to it as I'd love to read the comments. I won't hold my breath.
Moreover, if a Muslim Imam was hold up in a fortified bunker, surrounding with children and armed to the teeth, I'm not sure (absent what happened in Waco) anyone would be too concerned with the feds making a forceful entry to serve that warrant.
Oh, I should add that if you read this thread in its entirety, someone else takes issue with my Muslim analogy because (in their words) Christians aren't Muslims - the import being that whatever we do to them (Muslims) is just fine.
Your original claim:
“If David Koresh’s name was Abdul Hussein, and it was a muzzie compound rather than some faux-Christian sect, people would be showing no mercy for those killed in the “raid”.
Koresh was mad-man, who probably institutionally molested young girls, and kept women against their will. The world is better off without him, it’s just too bad the federal government was so fiercely incompetent that they allowed some 30 children to be killed in the process.”
I think you are largely correct if the “people” is limited to FR. It is still not completely strong as an argument because there is a strong libertarian streak here [not mine] that rejects patriot act like intrusions in a rather principaled manner.
I am still more interested in what you may view as a tangent. Such raids would never take place with muslims. Neither Bush Federal Agencies or Obama federal agencies would allow a warrant to be prosecuted in such a brash manner and they certainly would not escalate with the military style attack on the compound. I think the raids you allege are far more discrete. It may be knowledge learned since Koresh but I really think it is a federal bias that Christians are a majoritarian threat whereas Muslims are a marginalized victim class that should be handled more carefully.
Its also difficult to differentiate how children might die in your scenario. It is the view of radicals such as Al Qaeda that the deliberate killing of children is part of a representational strategy against superior power. Children are used throughout the world in places such as Gaza and Lebanon and this changes how any audience should interpret the events. Its hard to fathom how Koresh or any similar Christian militant group would do that. Its possible but not something with the same clear track record.
I see your point but don’t think it is completely accurate.
Which just underscores how far beyond the pale the ATF and FBI went at Waco. Bogus warrant, dozens of violations of Posse Comitatus, Congressional cover up...
The standard for search warrants or the issuance of National Security Letters (which is an administrative subpoena issued absent judicial oversight) is remarkably different in our post-9/11 world, compared to what it was like in 1993.
Believe me that these letters are issued with FAR less evidence and a lower level of suspicion than any warrant issued for the Davidians.
Absolutely right. Not one of those warrants OldDeckHand says have been executed on Muslim Mosques etc, were anything like a well armed camp. The people who live near Islamberg, NY complained repeatedly about the highly armed Muslim compound there and no warrants were ever served. In fact the FBI joined the Muslims there for picnics. Now all of the jihadis trained there have disappeared into the woodwork.
It's a completely empty argument. No facts to back it up.
"The affidavit, kept secret during the siege, now has been released; a review of it shows that it failed to establish probable cause."
Since when do you care about facts?
If you'd educate yourself a little before making ridiculously inaccurate statements, you'd do yourself a favor. There's plenty of material available on the internet that documents the scope and breadth of our 9/11 domestic intelligence gathering, to include the number of warrants issued on Muslim charities and Mosques.
The fact that there hasn't been any resistance to these warranted searches, speaks to the complicity of the American Muslims. Koresh, OTOH, decided that he wouldn't comply with the search warrant request, and decided to fight.
You're right, though - not one Mosque - out of the dozens that have been searched - were armed. Why is that? But, Koresh and his kooky followers were.
ROTFL!
Seriously, you dont need me to tell you that you are one hell of a woman.If I ever get the chance , I will stand you to a drink or two when your feet are on the ground.
Obviously you don't care about facts. It has been shown to you that the ATF fired first, shot their own agents and refused an offer to come and peacefully inspect anything they wanted to.
I think you were there weren't you? Not the first BATFAG to come on FR and make excuses.
Which explicitly makes the situation so different as not to be comparable in any way. But there are numerous armed Muslim compounds in the country. No warrants issued or served there by your own admission. I also note your hostility to the 2nd Amendment.
Law enforcement doesn't and shouldn't negotiate terms of a lawful search. Koresh was in NO POSITION to demand terms. He should have existed the building with his arms up to be taken into custody.
Why were there any shots fired? Why did it take eight weeks? When the Feds showed up with the warrant, Koresh should have let them in. They would have searched, they would have arrested him in his outstanding warrant and NO ONE would have died. That's how SANE people do things in this country.
If the warrant was obtained fraudulent, then Koresh legal counsel could have argued as such. If proven accurate, all materials seized in the raid WOULD NOT have been used at trial, and the arrest warrant would have been vacated.
Koresh should have done what HUNDREDS perhaps THOUSANDS of Muslims in America have done - cooperated peacefully when served by law enforcement officials with a duly executed search warrant.
I'm hardly anti-2nd Amendment. Your powers of perception is as flawed as your grasp of American jurisprudence.
There you go ignoring facts again. Koresh didn't "demand terms" he made an offer. He wasn't in the building to come out and surrender he was in a business days before the assault. Even the local sheriff recommended this approach.
Why were there any shots fired? Why did it take eight weeks? When the Feds showed up with the warrant, Koresh should have let them in.
If the ATF hadn't opened fire first he might have. Still ignoring facts.
I'm hardly anti-2nd Amendment. Your powers of perception is as flawed as your grasp of American jurisprudence.
You said that the Muslims that have been arrested were unarmed and in the next sentence called Koresh kooky for being armed.
You’re on ... I sometimes frequent The Ram in the U Dist. in Seattle ...
If I will be in Seattle, I will Freep mail you ahead of time.Heading for France in July if the volcano gives us a break.
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