Posted on 11/05/2009 3:11:02 PM PST by kellynla
MAJ. GEN. ROBERT SCALES (RET.) "This was a deliberate act of execution."
I’m wrong about your age, sorry, so you’re old and gray like me.
Proof that age doesn’t necessarily confer wisdom.
PS - I never said all Muslims should be killed. Ever, nor do think that. But they should all be ejected from the military, no more should enter the country, and the ones here should be vetted verrrrry carefully and if they are here getting a dime of welfare, or have the slightest taint of jihad bent, ditto sent back to whence they came.
And every mosque should have a minder who speaks Arabic attend all functions to see what’s really going on.
How’s that for open mindedness?
Oh, and all jihad training camps shut down and their organizers and attendees deported.
You really don't get it, do you? Those Japanese-Americans fought and died for American despite the fact that they and their innocent families had been locked up in internment camps because, like you, people were frightened that no Japanese could be trusted and they were all bad because of what the Japanese had done at Pearl Harbor and later Bataan and Nanking. The anti-Japanese hatred during WW2 was so strong that some American soldiers were sending the skulls of Japanese soldiers home as trophies (see here and here). If you want, I can also transcribe some quotes about how Americans dealt with many of the Japanese who surrendered at Okinawa (hint: they "got rid of them"). Yet, yes, many Japanese-Americans bravely fought and died for America even though some Americans thought as little of all Japanese, including those who served, as you think of all Muslims. You are aware that thousands of Muslims serve in the US military, right? Yes a few have gone bad but most have not.
You just stepped over the line, asshole. NOW GET LOST!
Like I said, if I'm really stepping over the line, ask the moderators to deal with it.
Yes. Google for freerepublic site:stormfront.org on Google. They read FreeRepublic and post and recruit here and talk about it on their own web site. Read how they do it. It's enlightening.
I'm sitting here feeling empty and ANGRY that some MUSLIM killed my fellow Americans'...like I did on 9-11.......and you're on here doing the warm fuzzy thing?
When the anger turns to talk of genocide and ignoring the Constitution, yeah, I'm going to do the warm fuzzy thing because the anger has gone off the deep end into fascism territory.
STORM FRONT? We're American's. We love our country. Oh never mind. It's obvious no one's been able to get through to you tonight. Just never mind.
Read the replies I've gotten. Perhaps I'm confused by I never thought genocide and ignoring the Constitution were patriotic.
Some people here do seem to be advocating genocide or something very much like it. I think that's a problem. I don't think Muslims should be ejected from the military but I do think it's reasonable to scrutinize their religious beliefs for compatibility with their duties. In the case of this murderer, clearly he was giving off warning signs that should not have been ignored. If you want to complain that political correctness and fear of being called intolerant caused the military to ignore warning signs that shouldn't have been ignored, I would agree with that.
With respect to immigrants, I think that we need a cultural filter more than a religious filter. I think that this approach being used by the Dutch is a good one, even if the details would be different for this country. Make sure the people who want to come here want to be Americans. If we do that, I think religion is largely irrelevant. I don't think any immigrants should be getting welfare. In that regard, I think the Japanese do the right thing. When you get a visa in Japan, someone has to vouch for you and they are responsible for paying to get you out of the country when your visa expires if you can't afford to leave on your own. This hits at the real problems which are an incompatibility with or hostility toward American culture and the American system without having to delve into religion.
And every mosque should have a minder who speaks Arabic attend all functions to see what’s really going on.
In principle, I think some religions should be classified as cults, particularly if they threaten those who leave. As such, Muslim sects that threaten apostates with death would qualify. This is the sort of distinction I was looking for earlier. But if a Muslim sect freely lets people leave, then I don't have a problem with them. Yes, that may make them "bad Muslims", particularly in the eyes of Muslim Fundamentalists, but that's irrelevant. What matters is if they are coercing and/or brainwashing people.
How’s that for open mindedness?
Better than some on this thread, but I think you should direct your suspicion toward culture rather than religion.
Oh, and all jihad training camps shut down and their organizers and attendees deported.
I agree with this, so long as it's done Constitutionally, which I think it probably could be.
You are wrong.
The Goal of Islam is world domination.
This is akin to commandments in the bible. Muslims take these quotes as quotes from their God Allah and thus as commandments from Allah.
So here I am quoting Allah in the Koran:
- I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them. (Koran 8:12)
- I (Allah Your God) will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers( all non-Muslims), Smite ye above their necks (beheaded Nick Berg) and smite all their finger tips of them ( ouch why would Allah command Muslims to cutt off non Muslims’ fingertips off if Islam was a religion of Peace?). (Koran 8:12)
Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush. (Koran 9:5)
- Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. (Koran 69:30-37)
- I (Allah Your God) will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers( all non-Muslims), Smite ye above their necks (beheaded Nick Berg) and smite all their finger tips of them ( ouch why would Allah command Muslims to cutt off non Muslims’ fingertips off if Islam was a religion of Peace?). (Koran 8:12)
- They should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides. (Koran 5:33)
- Know that paradise is under the shades of swords. Sahih al-Bukhari Vol 4 p55
According to Muslim scholar Pickthal, “the number of campaigns (military) he (Muhammad) led in person during the last ten years of his life is twenty-seven, in nine of which there was hard fighting. The number of expeditions which he planned and sent out under other leaders is thirty-eight” (n.d., pg. xxvi)
http://bibleprobe.com/muhammad.htm
Chronological History of violent expansion of Islam Starting From Mr. Mohammad
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15311&start=0
1. Islam is more than a religion, it is a culture, and a vicious, barbaric culture.
2. The Dutch are being harmed by their huge Muslim population. You ever heard of Theo Whatsisname who got murdered by a Muslim? Or the plotician whose name I can’t remember who got killed by a Muslim? Both for their not positive views of the culture of Islam? Or Geert Wilder? Huge numbers of Muslims practicing Islamic culture haven’t done them any good, any more than it has for France.
3. All Muslims should be ejected from the military. For reasons too numerous to go into, but the evidence of today’s terrorist attack will more than suffice.
The goal is Islam as specified in the Koran may indeed be world domination but the goal of individual Muslims as well as individual Muslim sects is not necessarily world domination just as not all Christians and Christian sects think and behave the same way. I’m not saying that we should tolerate honor killings, allow Muslims to kill apostates, or infringe on the liberty of people to criticize Islam as a free speech issue because something might offend Muslims. What I’m saying is that we should look at individual Muslims rather than assuming they all follow the most radical flavor of Islam, and if they are good Americans, then they shouldn’t be persecuted for the misdeeds of others who share their religion nor the potential of their religion to be dangerous.
I don’t give a shit how Mormons were viewed in the past, present or future. They have never waged jihad on non-Mormons, and that’s all I care about. Catholics never have either.
Mormons perpetuated the Mountain Meadows Massacre that caused the deaths of 100-140 non-Mormon settlers which was identical in nature to the elements of jihad commonly criticized on Free Republic. Polygamous Mormon sects have caused their share of problems in modern times and are very cult-like. The St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre resulted in the death of between 5,000 and 30,000 Huguenot Protestants while the Albigensian Crusade against the Cathars in France and resulted in 200,000 to 1,000,000 deaths. I would argue that qualifies as a sort of "jihad", too, by Catholics. My point is not that Mormons or Catholics are bad but that bad things have been done by Mormons and Catholics in the name of those religions.
A lot of the culture isn't integral to Islam. My libertarian Muslim friend eats foods other Muslims don't consider Halal, his wife doesn't wear a headscarf, and his son isn't circumcised. When I asked him about that, he told me that those were Arab cultural practices and not in the Koran, itself, which he interprets narrowly. This is why Islam is more radical in some cultures than in others. A lot of the cultural baggage is cultural baggage.
2. The Dutch are being harmed by their huge Muslim population. You ever heard of Theo Whatsisname who got murdered by a Muslim? Or the plotician whose name I can’t remember who got killed by a Muslim? Both for their not positive views of the culture of Islam? Or Geert Wilder? Huge numbers of Muslims practicing Islamic culture haven’t done them any good, any more than it has for France.
Correct, but look at how they are reacting to it. They are reacting to the culture that's the problem rather than the religion. If a Muslim can cope with gays kissing and topless beaches, then they can cope with Dutch culture. If they can't, then they should live somewhere else.
3. All Muslims should be ejected from the military. For reasons too numerous to go into, but the evidence of today’s terrorist attack will more than suffice.
There are several thousand Muslims in the US military and those that have caused problems are well below 1%. The evidence from today shows that the military should keep an eye on Muslims who display sympathies with America's enemies and unhappiness with the military and they shouldn't let political correctness stop them from following up on such concerns. This guy sent out major warning signs that shouldn't have been ignored. As with most of these cases, just paying better attention would have been sufficient to avert disaster.
Do you feel the same way about the kkk? Islam is an evil religion. Its members are either devout and ready to murder non muslims or they are not really muslims them selfs.
1. Islam is more than a religion, it is a culture, and a vicious, barbaric culture.
You’re being extremely disingenuous. Muslims have similar cultural baggage no matter what country they live in. The worst cultural/religious baggage is universal - the integral part of their teachings and culture which is convert everyone in the world, by force if necessary, by any means. I notice you left that part out... And what the heck difference does it make if FGM, repressed women, and similar barbaric practices aren’t “really” Muslim, just “cultural”, if all the Muslims think they’re Muslim practices?
You may say that your (hypothetical...) Muslim “libertarian” friend doesn’t support jihad, and I know at least some don’t. But why don’t they speak out against jihad? Do you know why? I know why. THey are scared shitless of the jihadis too. They like their heads attached to their shoulders just as much as anyone else.
Come on! You’re really evading the issue.
2.
Correct, but look at how they are reacting to it. They are reacting to the culture that’s the problem rather than the religion. If a Muslim can cope with gays kissing and topless beaches, then they can cope with Dutch culture. If they can’t, then they should live somewhere else.
?? You aren’t making any sense. The Dutch are reacting to this “non-Muslim culture” that Muslims think is Muslim? WTH?? Plus the Muslim thugdom and rape that is getting more and more common, especially in Scandinavia - I guess that’s just “cultural” too? So what - it’s Muslims doing it, because they’re Muslims. It’s okay because it’s only Muslim “culture” and not Muslim “religion”?
You are just incredible in your deceit.
Plus, the homosexuality rampant in the Netherlands isn’t doing the Dutch any good, either. They’re getting ruined from both directions.
3. You cite that less than 1% of Muslims have caused problems in the military. You have a source for that figure? No? And if the number is higher, which I think likely, much of the harm may not even be known - spilling intel to the enmey is one easy way, or just slowdown, or otherwise causing harm to the military effort. Plus, how many are planning? Just as there are gang members in the military who should all be kicked out, all Muslims should be kicked out.
How are you going to find the bad jihadi ones? Ask them? And if they say “Yeah, I’m a jihadi and I’m planning to kill a bunch of my fellow US soldiers” then you know they’re the bad ones?
Oh my God. You dredge out of the last 800 years, or whatever it is, three instances of atrocities by non-Muslims. Well, well - you desreve the gold star and you can sit in the front of the class.
So Mormons are *just like* Muslim jihadis because some long dead Mormons killed at most 140 non-Mormons. That was nasty no doubt, but since Mormons haven’t made a habit of that practice, it was a one time atrocity, you are performing dangerous contortions to try to make Mormons out to be as evil as Muslims. ANyone who reads this tomorrow will laugh out loud to read your idiocy.
Yes, Catholics have done their share too - but guess what, the Catholics that did such atrocities - get this next part - weren’t following the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible - nor his example! They were screwing up! But Muslims, OTOH, when they commit atrocities (which, btw, they are STILL DOING - LIKE AS OF TODAY!!!) - they ARE following the teachings of and example of their spiritual leader. They have never, ever given up the practice of slaughter, forced conversions, and taking over other countries that dont’ belong to them and stealing their riches, destroying their churches, monasteries, temples and stupas, and enslaving their peoples. As happend in all the Middle Eastern countries, Iran,Iraq, Afghanistan, Greater India (and hence getting it chopped up into three countries), Malaysia, Indonesia, etc etc etc.
To say Stalin wasn’t muslim makes no sense. Stalinism wasn’t a religion. It’s the religion of Islam that’s the problem here. Religious beliefs is the problem, not political ideology.
And, yes, I say the only way to win is to kill them all. I also say we won’t do that.
I accept that not all muslims are wanting to kill us. But the only way to find out which ones want to is to wait until they do their deed. We cannot profile so we have to sit and wait and see which ones are the nuts.
This religion is growing fast and it won’t be long before they take over the world. The radicals are in charge and the “safe ones” won’t stand up to them. They may condemn the actions in a press conference but I don’t remember any muslim ever turning in a fellow muslim in advance of the attacks.
So, shit and wait and there will come a time you won’t be a Christian. All Christians will be dead. Personally, I think the best way to die would be to have a muslim standing behind me demanding I denounce Christ and I say, “Start whacking, boy.”
I also believe Jesus is not on their side and when he comes back it won’t be to bring peace.
>>You may also notice that the Nisei soldiers, Japanese who fought for the United States during WW2, were commended for their brave service.
Ideologically, they were Americans.
True Islamics will never ideologically be Americans.
We didn’t befriend Soviet Communists during the Cold War, but we would work with non-Communist Russians as spies and such.
Do you see how ideology is at play in those examples?
Islam is a political ideology as much as it is a religious one, and it is an ideology that is in complete opposition to the sort of classical Liberalism upon which the USA is based. It cloaks itself as a religion, which gives it a “pass” to many here in the U.S. due to the 1st Amendment, but it is at heart a controlling totalitarian political system, and my evidence is the countries where the majority of the inhabitants follow the ideology.
What you seem to be missing is that there are plenty of people who call themselves Muslims but are not ready to murder non-Muslims. Maybe that makes them bad Muslims, particularly in the eyes of the Islamofascists but they call themselves Muslims. What else would you call them? What Muslims believe is no more monolithic than what Christians believe and if every adherent to a Holy book followed it to the letter, why is it, for example, that so many "Christians" accept casual divorce, a practice Jesus clearly and distinctly spoke out against, including those from a sect that actually does aggressively oppose it (Catholics) and why do so many Catholics support legal abortion when their church opposes it? We can debate about whether they are good Catholics or bad Catholics but they call themselves Catholic yet don't agree with even their own clergy. Plenty of Muslims are the same way. What you are doing is basically the same as saying "All Catholics are anti-abortion" or "All Catholics are anti-divorce" or "All Mormons are pro-polygamy" and there are certainly Catholics and Mormons that will tell you that all good Catholics or Mormons believe those things but those assertions are no true in any useful sense. Why is that so hard to grasp?
yeah whatever
yeah whatever
No, they don't. Persians are different from Arabs who are different from the Turks, for example, and sects like Sufism and Alevism practiced by many Turks believe things quite different than what's taught in Wahabbist mosques.
The worst cultural/religious baggage is universal - the integral part of their teachings and culture which is convert everyone in the world, by force if necessary, by any means. I notice you left that part out...
I left it out because it's not true of Sufis or Alevis, for example, and many Muslims of other sects simply don't believe or practice is any more than all Catholics go to confession, oppose abortion, or oppose divorce. What you are claiming is the equivalent of claiming that Nancy Pelosi can't exist because she says she's Catholic yet supports abortion on demand. Whether she's a good Catholic or a bad Catholic is irrelevant. In her mind, she's Catholic yet pro-abortion. Similarly, I've had Conservative and Orthodox Jews tell me that Reformed Jews are not really Jews (much as I've had plenty of Christians tell me that Uniterians aren't really Christian) yet Reformed Jews believe they are Jewish despite ignoring most of the rules and practices that are so integral to Judaism (and there are Uniterians who think of themselves as Christian despite rejecting some of the key tenants of Christianity). What you are essentially doing is sweeping this all under the carpet and claiming that this sort of thing doesn't exist in Muslims. It does.
And what the heck difference does it make if FGM, repressed women, and similar barbaric practices aren’t “really” Muslim, just “cultural”, if all the Muslims think they’re Muslim practices?
Because not all Muslims think they're Muslim practices. As I said, I know a family that clearly doesn't, nor do members of several Muslim sects.
You may say that your (hypothetical...) Muslim “libertarian” friend doesn’t support jihad, and I know at least some don’t. But why don’t they speak out against jihad? Do you know why? I know why. THey are scared shitless of the jihadis too. They like their heads attached to their shoulders just as much as anyone else.
Yes, moderate Muslims who don't support the radicals are scared to speak out. I said as much earlier in the thread. But when non-Muslims like you claim "they're all the same" or, worse, "Kill them all and let God sort them out," what kind of message does that send the moderates? The radicals can then turn to them and say, "See, they want to kill you even more than we do."
?? You aren’t making any sense. The Dutch are reacting to this “non-Muslim culture” that Muslims think is Muslim? WTH??
No, my point is that it's irrelevant whether the beliefs and practices they bring to the table are religious or cultural. If you screen for cultural compatibility, it just doesn't matter. And if someone wants to say that they are Muslim yet is fine with gays kissing on the streets and topless beaches and women not wearing veils then it doesn't matter if they are a good Muslim or a bad Muslim. What matters is that they are culturally compatible with the culture the Dutch want to preserve.
Plus the Muslim thugdom and rape that is getting more and more common, especially in Scandinavia - I guess that’s just “cultural” too?
If you look closely at the Muslim problems in Europe, yes, much of it is cultural because specific Muslim communities cause more problems than others, and the same is true in this country, too. Despite the hostility that's been ongoing between Iran and the United States since the late 1970s, why aren't Persians a significant source of terrorism or things like honor killings in the United States? Because their culture is different. Why are the Taliban clustered in Afghanistan and Pakistan while the Kurds were running ads on Fox News thanking America for liberating Iraq? Because their culture is different. Yes, there are elements of fundamentalist Islam that are incompatible with contemporary American culture but not every Muslim believes or practices those things. And as militant atheists so readily point out, there are plenty of elements of Judaism and Christianity in the Bible that grate on modern sensibilities, too. Are you aware, for example, that plenty of Orthodox/Hassidic Jewish women in New York cover their hair with wigs because their religion prohibits them from showing their uncovered hair in public, too?
So what - it’s Muslims doing it, because they’re Muslims. It’s okay because it’s only Muslim “culture” and not Muslim “religion”?
My point is that you should be condemning people for what they actually do (or conspire to do) and not how they label themselves. It's not that difficult to tell the radicals from the moderates. Watch how they deal with women, especially their own. That's not something they can or would fake.
Plus, the homosexuality rampant in the Netherlands isn’t doing the Dutch any good, either. They’re getting ruined from both directions.
I'm not saying that it's doing them any good. I'm saying that acceptance of homosexuality is part of their culture. And if a person who calls themselves a Muslim can deal with that, despite the hostility toward homosexuality among other radical Muslims, then it suggests that they put civility and coexistence above forcing radical Islam on others.
You cite that less than 1% of Muslims have caused problems in the military. You have a source for that figure? No?
There are thousands of Muslims in the military. I know of at least two that have killed other soldiers and a few that have engaged in other anti-American activity. For the figure to top 1%, there would have to be 50-100 problem Muslims. I think that if the numbers were that high, we'd know about it by now.
And if the number is higher, which I think likely, much of the harm may not even be known - spilling intel to the enmey is one easy way, or just slowdown, or otherwise causing harm to the military effort. Plus, how many are planning? Just as there are gang members in the military who should all be kicked out, all Muslims should be kicked out.
And once they start those witch-hunts, were do they stop? Why not prohibit blacks and hispanics from serving in the military because so many blacks and hispanics are in gangs and you never know what they might secretly be up to? How about prohibiting atheists because they might be communists, who have a known history of infiltrating our military and leaking secrets. How about people of Chinese dissent because of the threat that the Chinese pose to our security and the breaches by Chinese agents. And when this witch hunt is over, are we going to need a draft to fill the recruitment quotas?
How are you going to find the bad jihadi ones? Ask them? And if they say “Yeah, I’m a jihadi and I’m planning to kill a bunch of my fellow US soldiers” then you know they’re the bad ones?
Most of the jihadis aren't that bright. Really. This murderer sent out all sorts of signals he was a problem before he went on his rampage. The 9/11 hijackers sent out all sorts of warnings but they were ignored. Like I said, you can tell a great deal by watching how they deal with women. The jihadis all seem to have big issues with women.
One thing in his timeline didn’t make sense.
He reportedly graduated from high school,(say 18) went to Virginia Tech, graduate in Biochemistry(say 22), had been part of ROTC, then went into med school(say 26), then into the Army. Went into the Army as a Capt, that makes sense, there are programs allowing MDs to enter service as 0-3, then picked up Major within 6 years as a psychiatrist(say 30), and now he’s only been on active duty in the Army for 6 years bu he’s 39.
Where’s the missing 9 years?
Do you really believe those three instances are it? Do you really need a longer list?
So Mormons are *just like* Muslim jihadis because some long dead Mormons killed at most 140 non-Mormons. That was nasty no doubt, but since Mormons haven’t made a habit of that practice, it was a one time atrocity, you are performing dangerous contortions to try to make Mormons out to be as evil as Muslims. ANyone who reads this tomorrow will laugh out loud to read your idiocy.
I'm talking about historical attitudes toward Mormons, which were not as friendly as they are today and still aren't so friendly for some people. What's to stop a modern Mormon from following the examples of their founders?
Yes, Catholics have done their share too - but guess what, the Catholics that did such atrocities - get this next part - weren’t following the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible - nor his example! They were screwing up!
But they didn't think they were. In some cases, they thought they were being good Catholics. In other cases, they just didn't care what their religion said.
But Muslims, OTOH, when they commit atrocities (which, btw, they are STILL DOING - LIKE AS OF TODAY!!!) - they ARE following the teachings of and example of their spiritual leader.
Most people who call themselves Christian are not Biblical scholars. Most people who call themselves Muslim are not Koranic scholars. You want to argue that all Muslims think and behave the same way. It's no more true than the claim that all Christians think and behave the same way. Whether they are good or bad members of their faith is irrelevant.
They have never, ever given up the practice of slaughter, forced conversions, and taking over other countries that dont’ belong to them and stealing their riches, destroying their churches, monasteries, temples and stupas, and enslaving their peoples. As happend in all the Middle Eastern countries, Iran,Iraq, Afghanistan, Greater India (and hence getting it chopped up into three countries), Malaysia, Indonesia, etc etc etc.
Yes, Muslims have done plenty of nasty things. And how has keeping them out or killing them been working out to stop them from spreading? The problem with isolating them is that it isolates them from the ideas that eliminate the problem. The radical Muslims know that. That's why they are bombing girls' schools in Afghanistan.
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