Replies

1. Islam is more than a religion, it is a culture, and a vicious, barbaric culture.

A lot of the culture isn’t integral to Islam. My libertarian Muslim friend eats foods other Muslims don’t consider Halal, his wife doesn’t wear a headscarf, and his son isn’t circumcised. When I asked him about that, he told me that those were Arab cultural practices and not in the Koran, itself, which he interprets narrowly. This is why Islam is more radical in some cultures than in others. A lot of the cultural baggage is cultural baggage.

You’re being extremely disingenuous. Muslims have similar cultural baggage no matter what country they live in. The worst cultural/religious baggage is universal - the integral part of their teachings and culture which is convert everyone in the world, by force if necessary, by any means. I notice you left that part out... And what the heck difference does it make if FGM, repressed women, and similar barbaric practices aren’t “really” Muslim, just “cultural”, if all the Muslims think they’re Muslim practices?

You may say that your (hypothetical...) Muslim “libertarian” friend doesn’t support jihad, and I know at least some don’t. But why don’t they speak out against jihad? Do you know why? I know why. THey are scared shitless of the jihadis too. They like their heads attached to their shoulders just as much as anyone else.

Come on! You’re really evading the issue.

2.
Correct, but look at how they are reacting to it. They are reacting to the culture that’s the problem rather than the religion. If a Muslim can cope with gays kissing and topless beaches, then they can cope with Dutch culture. If they can’t, then they should live somewhere else.

?? You aren’t making any sense. The Dutch are reacting to this “non-Muslim culture” that Muslims think is Muslim? WTH?? Plus the Muslim thugdom and rape that is getting more and more common, especially in Scandinavia - I guess that’s just “cultural” too? So what - it’s Muslims doing it, because they’re Muslims. It’s okay because it’s only Muslim “culture” and not Muslim “religion”?

You are just incredible in your deceit.

Plus, the homosexuality rampant in the Netherlands isn’t doing the Dutch any good, either. They’re getting ruined from both directions.

3. You cite that less than 1% of Muslims have caused problems in the military. You have a source for that figure? No? And if the number is higher, which I think likely, much of the harm may not even be known - spilling intel to the enmey is one easy way, or just slowdown, or otherwise causing harm to the military effort. Plus, how many are planning? Just as there are gang members in the military who should all be kicked out, all Muslims should be kicked out.

How are you going to find the bad jihadi ones? Ask them? And if they say “Yeah, I’m a jihadi and I’m planning to kill a bunch of my fellow US soldiers” then you know they’re the bad ones?

You’re being extremely disingenuous. Muslims have similar cultural baggage no matter what country they live in.

No, they don't. Persians are different from Arabs who are different from the Turks, for example, and sects like Sufism and Alevism practiced by many Turks believe things quite different than what's taught in Wahabbist mosques.

The worst cultural/religious baggage is universal - the integral part of their teachings and culture which is convert everyone in the world, by force if necessary, by any means. I notice you left that part out...

I left it out because it's not true of Sufis or Alevis, for example, and many Muslims of other sects simply don't believe or practice is any more than all Catholics go to confession, oppose abortion, or oppose divorce. What you are claiming is the equivalent of claiming that Nancy Pelosi can't exist because she says she's Catholic yet supports abortion on demand. Whether she's a good Catholic or a bad Catholic is irrelevant. In her mind, she's Catholic yet pro-abortion. Similarly, I've had Conservative and Orthodox Jews tell me that Reformed Jews are not really Jews (much as I've had plenty of Christians tell me that Uniterians aren't really Christian) yet Reformed Jews believe they are Jewish despite ignoring most of the rules and practices that are so integral to Judaism (and there are Uniterians who think of themselves as Christian despite rejecting some of the key tenants of Christianity). What you are essentially doing is sweeping this all under the carpet and claiming that this sort of thing doesn't exist in Muslims. It does.

And what the heck difference does it make if FGM, repressed women, and similar barbaric practices aren’t “really” Muslim, just “cultural”, if all the Muslims think they’re Muslim practices?

Because not all Muslims think they're Muslim practices. As I said, I know a family that clearly doesn't, nor do members of several Muslim sects.

Yes, moderate Muslims who don't support the radicals are scared to speak out. I said as much earlier in the thread. But when non-Muslims like you claim "they're all the same" or, worse, "Kill them all and let God sort them out," what kind of message does that send the moderates? The radicals can then turn to them and say, "See, they want to kill you even more than we do."

?? You aren’t making any sense. The Dutch are reacting to this “non-Muslim culture” that Muslims think is Muslim? WTH??

No, my point is that it's irrelevant whether the beliefs and practices they bring to the table are religious or cultural. If you screen for cultural compatibility, it just doesn't matter. And if someone wants to say that they are Muslim yet is fine with gays kissing on the streets and topless beaches and women not wearing veils then it doesn't matter if they are a good Muslim or a bad Muslim. What matters is that they are culturally compatible with the culture the Dutch want to preserve.

Plus the Muslim thugdom and rape that is getting more and more common, especially in Scandinavia - I guess that’s just “cultural” too?

If you look closely at the Muslim problems in Europe, yes, much of it is cultural because specific Muslim communities cause more problems than others, and the same is true in this country, too. Despite the hostility that's been ongoing between Iran and the United States since the late 1970s, why aren't Persians a significant source of terrorism or things like honor killings in the United States? Because their culture is different. Why are the Taliban clustered in Afghanistan and Pakistan while the Kurds were running ads on Fox News thanking America for liberating Iraq? Because their culture is different. Yes, there are elements of fundamentalist Islam that are incompatible with contemporary American culture but not every Muslim believes or practices those things. And as militant atheists so readily point out, there are plenty of elements of Judaism and Christianity in the Bible that grate on modern sensibilities, too. Are you aware, for example, that plenty of Orthodox/Hassidic Jewish women in New York cover their hair with wigs because their religion prohibits them from showing their uncovered hair in public, too?

So what - it’s Muslims doing it, because they’re Muslims. It’s okay because it’s only Muslim “culture” and not Muslim “religion”?

My point is that you should be condemning people for what they actually do (or conspire to do) and not how they label themselves. It's not that difficult to tell the radicals from the moderates. Watch how they deal with women, especially their own. That's not something they can or would fake.

Plus, the homosexuality rampant in the Netherlands isn’t doing the Dutch any good, either. They’re getting ruined from both directions.

I'm not saying that it's doing them any good. I'm saying that acceptance of homosexuality is part of their culture. And if a person who calls themselves a Muslim can deal with that, despite the hostility toward homosexuality among other radical Muslims, then it suggests that they put civility and coexistence above forcing radical Islam on others.

You cite that less than 1% of Muslims have caused problems in the military. You have a source for that figure? No?

There are thousands of Muslims in the military. I know of at least two that have killed other soldiers and a few that have engaged in other anti-American activity. For the figure to top 1%, there would have to be 50-100 problem Muslims. I think that if the numbers were that high, we'd know about it by now.

And if the number is higher, which I think likely, much of the harm may not even be known - spilling intel to the enmey is one easy way, or just slowdown, or otherwise causing harm to the military effort. Plus, how many are planning? Just as there are gang members in the military who should all be kicked out, all Muslims should be kicked out.

And once they start those witch-hunts, were do they stop? Why not prohibit blacks and hispanics from serving in the military because so many blacks and hispanics are in gangs and you never know what they might secretly be up to? How about prohibiting atheists because they might be communists, who have a known history of infiltrating our military and leaking secrets. How about people of Chinese dissent because of the threat that the Chinese pose to our security and the breaches by Chinese agents. And when this witch hunt is over, are we going to need a draft to fill the recruitment quotas?

How are you going to find the bad jihadi ones? Ask them? And if they say “Yeah, I’m a jihadi and I’m planning to kill a bunch of my fellow US soldiers” then you know they’re the bad ones?

Most of the jihadis aren't that bright. Really. This murderer sent out all sorts of signals he was a problem before he went on his rampage. The 9/11 hijackers sent out all sorts of warnings but they were ignored. Like I said, you can tell a great deal by watching how they deal with women. The jihadis all seem to have big issues with women.