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Will Electric Cars Crash The Grid?
Investor's Business Daily ^ | August 14, 2009 | IBD staff

Posted on 08/14/2009 5:51:51 PM PDT by WhiteCastle

Conservation: The Chevy Volt is said to be able to get 230 miles per gallon. That's if it's continually plugged into a fragile and overburdened power grid. Where will you be when the lights go out?

Since most U.S. electricity generation is not carbon-free, the Congressional Research Service agrees. The "widespread adoption of plug-in hybrid vehicles through 2030 may have only a small effect on, and might actually increase, carbon emissions," it observes.

"If you are using coal-fired power plants and half the country's electricity comes from coal powered plants, are you just trading one greenhouse gas emitter for another?" asks Mark Gaffigan, co-author of the GAO report. The report notes: "Reductions in CO2 emissions depend on generating electricity used to charge the vehicles from lower-emission sources of energy."

(Excerpt) Read more at ibdeditorials.com ...


TOPICS: Front Page News
KEYWORDS: automakers; automobiles; autos; batteries; battery; bigthree; blackouts; brownouts; cafe; carbonemissions; cars; chevrolet; chevyvolt; clowncars; clunkers; co2; coal; coalfired; crashthegrid; detroit; electriccars; electricgrid; electricity; elsewhereemission; emissions; environment; fueleconomy; gao; gm; governmentmotors; greencar; greenhousegas; hybrid; hybridcars; hybrids; ibd; mpg; nrownouts; nuclearpower; plugin; powergrid; prius; volt
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To: ColdWater

Oh, I agree- I make it a habit to be wrong daily just so I don’t get out of practice.

That said, the load a battery-operated space heater required to keep a car heated in zero-degree weather is definitely not insignificant compared to the load place on the battery by the motor. I wouldn’t be surprised to find that the battery would be completely drained by the heater (and fan required) alone within 30minutes at temperatures well above the low temperatures experienced in over 25% of this country, in order to gain and maintain a cabin temperature of, say, 60F. There has been many a day that my car which generates tremendous waste heat has been hard pressed to accomplish that feat.

Certainly somewhere this has been investigated, and the answers pretty well understood. There are not going to be any breakthroughs available to accomplish the heating- it has to be raw power, or super-insulation required. Like an electric-heated home, an electric-heated car is likely to require major insulation, which eats up both weight and space.

As I said, anyone in a cold weather considering buying such a car must SERIOUSLY consider the question of heating the car in cold weather, and survival for some period of time in the case of sliding off the road into a ditch or snowbank in a rural area.


121 posted on 08/15/2009 6:59:04 PM PDT by AFPhys ((.Praying for President Bush, our troops, their families, and all my American neighbors..))
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To: AFPhys
Certainly somewhere this has been investigated, and the answers pretty well understood. There are not going to be any breakthroughs available to accomplish the heating- it has to be raw power, or super-insulation required. Like an electric-heated home, an electric-heated car is likely to require major insulation, which eats up both weight and space.

I think the IC engine on these cars is about 110 hp. Enough to keep you warm.

122 posted on 08/15/2009 7:06:09 PM PDT by ColdWater
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To: wastedyears
Not everybody is at liberty to spend $35,000 or so on an electric/hybrid car.

Not everyone is at liberty to buy a Fort GT500 Supersnake. That does not make it a bad car.

123 posted on 08/15/2009 7:08:02 PM PDT by ColdWater
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To: AFPhys
I have had a very expensive LIon battery tool fail within two years. My question is why this great battery technology has not come to age for battery-operated power tools.

Did you tool have a sophisticated power management scheme that required the gasoline engine to kick in when it was slightly depleted or did you not bother to charge it until it went so low it would no longer operate properly?

124 posted on 08/15/2009 7:13:00 PM PDT by ColdWater
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To: AFPhys

Volt Mule Winter Testing Has Been Successful

March 23rd, 2009 | Posted in: Engineering, Production, Prototypes

Spring is here, and the 30-odd Chevy Volt mules have passed through their first winter with flying colors I am told.

GM has tested the cars extensively at the Milford Michigan proving grounds, the Upper Peninsula (UP) of Michigan, and Kapuskasing, Ontario. Ten vehicles visited Kapuskasing and a few visited the upper peninsula.

The focus of the testing at the UP was more for chassis control development including stability control and braking. Battery work was not the primary task, as the lab environment is best for subjecting the battery pack to temperature extremes. Indeed those packs have been undergoing arduous temperature exposures for more than a year, with no problems identified.

In Canada, the focus of the testing was the propulsion system. The cars were kept indoors overnight, and then they were evaluated to see how they started and how they ran after a cold soak.

According to Voltec team leader Greg Ciesel, temperatures the mules were exposed to were “very much below zero,” and even at the Milford proving grounds “we got to probably minus 10 or 15 degrees F.”

Voltec spokesman Dave Darovitz said “Cold weather vehicle response depends on multiple factors including temperature, battery SOC, battery preconditioning (if plugged in) and if the vehicle was stored inside. Another factor is FMVSS defrost requirements, which demand more heat then we can supply electrically and cause the gas engine to turn on.”

He confirmed that testing was successful. “The cars performed as we expected under cold weather conditions,” he said “We still have some work ahead of us, but are encouraged with the operating conditions of the mules under very cold conditions.”

Volt lead engineer Andrew Farah gave an example of how a certain problem was discovered and fixed during the cold weather testing.. “We ran into some issues, we found out that we had a problem with one of our powertrain mounts,” he said “Why, because the car was going though some abusive driving…they told me we broke a mount. We did some analysis and we found things we knew about but we hadn’t gone far enough, it was an ‘aha’ moment and we fixed it.”


125 posted on 08/15/2009 7:49:06 PM PDT by ColdWater
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To: truthguy
There won't be a situation where everybody suddenly plug in their car.

Unless MANDATED!

126 posted on 08/16/2009 4:25:55 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: truthguy
It's about as likely as everyone flushing their toilet at exactly the same instant.

Super Bowl Half Time...

127 posted on 08/16/2009 4:28:56 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ColdWater; ponygirl

1988 Honda CRX HF...

a Honda CRX Xi 1985...

And WHY doesn’t HONDA produce a SIMILAR type vehicle TODAY?


128 posted on 08/16/2009 4:33:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: AFPhys
...I’m going to consider buying one to use with my portable battery-powered tools.

I converted one of my drills to use a small lead-acid emergency EXIT light battery (~ $12 at yer local hardware store).

Fits right in a fanny pack and powers the thing for a LONG... time. The cord is not much of a problem.


Amen on the COST of those batteries!

It's like buying a new printer when the INK runs out!

129 posted on 08/16/2009 4:37:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ColdWater
I think the IC engine on these cars is about 110 hp. Enough to keep you warm.

If so; then the touted 230 MPG claim is a lie!

130 posted on 08/16/2009 4:39:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
And WHY doesn’t HONDA produce a SIMILAR type vehicle TODAY?

Because people like you sued them for back problems.

131 posted on 08/16/2009 12:42:26 PM PDT by ColdWater
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To: Elsie
I forgot about that one but this extremely rare case doesn’t invalidate the norm. Not every electric car will be plugged in at the same time. And there will not be millions of these cars on the market overnight. It will be a gradual thing that will give the planners time to adjust.
132 posted on 08/16/2009 1:56:24 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough!)
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To: ColdWater
  >> The Toyota hybrid battery IS designed to last the life of the vehicle

I *thought* Toyota expected the rest of the car to outlast the battery. If untrue, then I am wrong. While I don't think an 8/80 warranty is the expected life of the Prius (at least I hope not!) I respect your point.

FWIW, it was not my goal to disparage the Prius, rather to point out that the batteries have fundamental differences. However I can see how it might've sounded that way. Sorry, if that's the case. I'm in favor of ANY car that reduces our oil consumption; I would just prefer one that makes it possible to use very little gas, or even NONE, yet doesn't constrain driving habits when longer trips are necessary.

As for Prius' battery lasting as much as 250,000 miles, I don't doubt that either. There will be cases at either extreme depending on driving patterns. The same will be true for any BEV/EREV, I'm sure.
133 posted on 08/16/2009 2:46:37 PM PDT by Mike-o-Matic
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To: Mike-o-Matic

Oops, as previously noted, 8/100 warranty.


134 posted on 08/16/2009 2:47:45 PM PDT by Mike-o-Matic
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To: Fresh Wind

Yeah, 40c for 8KWhr is at the VERY low end of conceivability. A nickel per KWHr? Maybe right next to a hydro dam somewhere??!? Around me, it’d be a buck as well.


135 posted on 08/16/2009 2:50:05 PM PDT by Mike-o-Matic
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To: Elsie

Part of the idea is to switch to electric propulsion, since there are a variety of ways to make electricity.


136 posted on 08/16/2009 2:52:13 PM PDT by Mike-o-Matic
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To: nascarnation
  I don’t think one size fits all in the transportation area.

^ ^ ^ This, FTW!
137 posted on 08/16/2009 2:57:56 PM PDT by Mike-o-Matic
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To: Mike-o-Matic

I went to your site but I didn’t find the info that I have been wondering about. How much will it add to your electricity to charge up your electric car?


138 posted on 08/16/2009 3:00:21 PM PDT by Ditter
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To: Mike-o-Matic

bttt


139 posted on 08/16/2009 3:01:50 PM PDT by ConservativeMan55
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To: Mike-o-Matic

There’s so much uninformed opinion and so few facts on FR about vehicles and energy sources that it sometimes makes me wonder how accurate a lot of the political comments are......

:-(


140 posted on 08/16/2009 3:05:08 PM PDT by nascarnation
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