Will Electric Cars Crash The Grid?

Investor's Business Daily ^ | August 14, 2009 | IBD staff

[WhiteCastle]

Conservation: The Chevy Volt is said to be able to get 230 miles per gallon. That's if it's continually plugged into a fragile and overburdened power grid. Where will you be when the lights go out?

Since most U.S. electricity generation is not carbon-free, the Congressional Research Service agrees. The "widespread adoption of plug-in hybrid vehicles through 2030 may have only a small effect on, and might actually increase, carbon emissions," it observes.

"If you are using coal-fired power plants and half the country's electricity comes from coal powered plants, are you just trading one greenhouse gas emitter for another?" asks Mark Gaffigan, co-author of the GAO report. The report notes: "Reductions in CO2 emissions depend on generating electricity used to charge the vehicles from lower-emission sources of energy."

[ColdWater]

http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/04/pnnl-researchers-develop-standard-smart-charger-for-plug-in-vehi/

[ColdWater]

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/04/21/sae-2009-sae-j1772-plug-standard-could-be-finalized-by-this-fal/

[marron]

It'll be a hundred degrees in North Dakota in January before I'll trust my life to an electric car in the winter here.

Good point. Where I live its easy to forget what a real winter is like.

[Fresh Wind]

Apart from meaningless PR statements like “40 cents to charge”, have any real numbers (in kilowatt-hours) been published for what a full charge of the Volt would take?

[Mike-o-Matic]

  >> have any real numbers (in kilowatt-hours) been published
  >> for what a full charge of the Volt would take?

Energy consumption is expected to be ~250 watt-hours per mile in the city cycle. For battery-health and longevity, they plan to use only half its 16KWhr capacity, between a state-of-charge between 35% and 85%. This means 8KWhrs of electricity constitutes how much it takes to charge it to achieve the desired 40 miles all-electric range.

Of course, 40 (miles' worth) times 250Whr is 10 KWhr, not 8, so something is different from the stated design goals. Either it actually uses less than 250 watt-hours/mile at low speeds (possible, given the Tesla's demonstrated consumption rate is lower than 250 watt-hours/mi at some speeds), or they've widened the proposed range of discharge they intend to utilize. Or I'm missing something completely.

Lots more info at http://www.gm-volt.com.

[ColdWater]

Apart from meaningless PR statements like “40 cents to charge”, have any real numbers (in kilowatt-hours) been published for what a full charge of the Volt would take?

I have seen no real numbers on the Volt. Honda's requires about 6 hours / 26 kwhrs to fully charge with a range a little over 100 miles. The off-peak cost would be a little over a dollar.

[ColdWater]

If they are referring to the first 40 miles before the engine kicks in, the 40cents (1 cent per mile) compares closely with the Honda numbers.

[Fresh Wind]

Thanks!

[Mike-o-Matic]

  >> and you can be guaranteed that a $3000 battery will not fare any better.

The Prius' battery is not expected to last the entire life of the car. The Volt's battery IS expected to do so.

For one thing, there are completely different cell chemistries are used in the Volt and Prius; Volt uses Lithium-Manganese Li-Ion, Prius uses NiMH cells. Also, the Volt uses the juice differently by design. In essence, it under-stresses the battery, so it'll last much longer.

LG chem (the cell's maker) and GM (the car/batt-pack maker) are testing the CRAP out of these batteries (accelerated cycling, heat, cold, vibration, etc.) to make sure they can safely warranty them for the full life of the vehicle. The warranty is widely expected to be 10yr-150,000mi (not officially published, so far as I know, but they've made comments to that effect in interviews).

[Mike-o-Matic]

Happy to help. Just about everybody is going to have some questions (or even, unfortunately, misconceptions) about BEVs/EREVs at one point or another. It's an enormous paradigm shift!

I just hope they ask good questions like you did!

[ColdWater]

The Prius' battery is not expected to last the entire life of the car. The Volt's battery IS expected to do so. For one thing, there are completely different cell chemistries are used in the Volt and Prius; Volt uses Lithium-Manganese Li-Ion, Prius uses NiMH cells. Also, the Volt uses the juice differently by design. In essence, it under-stresses the battery, so it'll last much longer. LG chem (the cell's maker) and GM (the car/batt-pack maker) are testing the CRAP out of these batteries (accelerated cycling, heat, cold, vibration, etc.) to make sure they can safely warranty them for the full life of the vehicle. The warranty is widely expected to be 10yr-150,000mi (not officially published, so far as I know, but they've made comments to that effect in interviews).

Correction. The Toyota hybrid battery IS designed to last the life of the vehicle. The standard warranty is 8 years / 80,000 miles with 10 yrs/150,000 miles required in California. Toyota reports that it is not unusual to go 250,000 miles on a battery.

[ColdWater]

Correction: 8 yr / 100,000 miles.

[Fresh Wind]

Unfortunately, I live in an area with high electric rates (soon to go much higher when long-standing rate caps expire). Based on some rough calculations (and some guesses), a full charge on the Volt (8kwh) would cost me a little over one dollar, three times the 40 cent figure that GM is floating. Still not bad, though.

[MSF BU]

Paul Harvey must be spinning in his grave; are you buying Interstate Batteries?

[Elsie]

Covered. They want to install GPS's in the cars and track your mileage and even which roads (toll, county, state, bridges, etc) you drive on.

[Elsie]

10,000 pounds of coal to generate enough electricity to move a car about 300 miles? Uh, I don’t think that sounds right...

Uh...

...I agree.

The COAL CARS would have been a LOT bigger, I would guess!

[Elsie]

You owe it to yourself to educated about EREVs.

I was 'edjumacated' in high school about energy, and the transformation of it from chemical to mechanical and so forth.

I've not seen any great EFFIENCY breakthoughs announced since then that would allow a certain MASS to be accelerated up to a certain SPEED for a certain COST better than GASOLINE... I do not care HOW cute the replacement package is, or how many computers it has on board.

[Elsie]

No fair using actual SCIENCE to back up your claim!

[Elsie]

In CA, the batteries are warranted for 10 years, 150,000 miles.

So what?

It's a gimmick.

NO batteries last that long - they are PRO-rated.

You always end up getting a NEW battery where you got the OLD one - 'cause it DIED on you before it's 'life', ahem, was up.

[Elsie]

So what’s a smart charger?

Here ya go!