Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Suborned in the U.S.A. - The BC controversy is about Obama’s honesty, not where he was born
Nationnal Review ^ | By Andrew C. McCarthy

Posted on 08/01/2009 4:36:21 PM PDT by Jim Robinson

July 30, 2009, 0:00 a.m.

Suborned in the U.S.A.
The birth-certificate controversy is about Obama’s honesty, not where he was born.

By Andrew C. McCarthy

Throughout the 2008 campaign, Barack Hussein Obama claimed it was a “smear” to refer to him as “Barack Hussein Obama.” The candidate had initially rhapsodized over how his middle name, the name of the prophet Mohammed’s grandson, would signal a new beginning in American relations with the Muslim world. But when the nomination fight intensified, Obama decided that Islamic heritage was a net negative. So, with a media reliably uncurious about political biographies outside metropolitan Wasilla, Obama did what Obama always does: He airbrushed his personal history on the fly.

Suddenly, it was “just making stuff up,” as Obama put it, for questioners “to say that, you know, maybe he’s got Muslim connections.” “The only connection I’ve had to Islam,” the candidate insisted, “is that my grandfather on my father’s side came from [Kenya]. But I’ve never practiced Islam.” Forget about “Hussein”; the mere mention of Obama’s middle initial — “H” — riled the famously thin-skinned senator. Supporters charged that “shadowy attackers” were “lying about Barack’s religion, claiming he is a Muslim.” The Obamedia division at USA Today, in a report subtly titled “Obama’s grandma slams ‘untruths,’” went so far as to claim that Obama’s Kenyan grandmother is a Christian — even though a year earlier, when Obama’s “flaunt Muslim ties” script was still operative, the New York Times had described the same woman, 85-year-old Sara Hussein Obama, as a “lifelong Muslim” who proclaimed, I am a strong believer of the Islamic faith.

Such was the ardor of Obama’s denials that jaws dropped when, once safely elected, he reversed course (again) and embraced his Islamic heritage. “The president himself experienced Islam on three continents,” an administration spokesman announced. “You know, growing up in Indonesia, having a Muslim father . . .” The “Muslim father” theme was an interesting touch: During the campaign, when the question of Barack Hussein Obama Sr.’s Islamic faith reared its head, the candidate curtly denied it with an air of what’s-that-got-to-do-with-me? finality: “My father was basically agnostic, as far as I can tell, and I didn’t know him.” And, it turns out, the spokesman’s fleeting bit about “growing up in Indonesia” wasn’t the half of it: Obama had actually been raised as a Muslim in Indonesia — or, at least that’s what his parents told his schools (more on that in due course).

These twists and turns in the Obama narrative rush to mind when we consider National Review’s leap into the Obama-birth-certificate fray with Tuesday’s editorial, “Born in the U.S.A.”

The editorial desire to put to rest the “Obama was born in Kenya” canard is justifiable. The overwhelming evidence is that Obama was born an American citizen on Aug. 4, 1961, which almost certainly makes him constitutionally eligible to hold his office. I say “almost certainly” because Obama, as we shall see, presents complex dual-citizenship issues. For now, let’s just stick with what’s indisputable: He was also born a Kenyan citizen. In theory, that could raise a question about whether he qualifies as a “natural born” American — an uncharted constitutional concept.

The mission of National Review has always included keeping the Right honest, which includes debunking crackpot conspiracy theories. The theory that Obama was born in Kenya, that he was smuggled into the U.S., and that his parents somehow hoodwinked Hawaiian authorities into falsely certifying his birth in Oahu, is crazy stuff. Even Obama’s dual Kenyan citizenship is of dubious materiality: It is a function of foreign law, involving no action on his part (to think otherwise, you’d have to conclude that if Yemen passed a law tomorrow saying, “All Americans — except, of course, Jews — are hereby awarded Yemeni citizenship,” only Jewish Americans could henceforth run for president). In any event, even if you were of a mind to indulge the Kenyan-birth fantasy, stop, count to ten, and think: Hillary Clinton. Is there any chance on God’s green earth that, if Obama were not qualified to be president, the Clinton machine would have failed to get that information out?

CERTIFICATE AND CERTIFICATION

So, end of story, right? Well, no. The relevance of information related to the birth of our 44th president is not limited to his eligibility to be our 44th president. On this issue, NRO’s editorial has come in for some blistering criticism. The editorial argues:

The fundamental fiction is that Obama has refused to release his “real” birth certificate. This is untrue. The document that Obama has made available is the document that Hawaiian authorities issue when they are asked for a birth certificate. There is no secondary document cloaked in darkness, only the state records that are used to generate birth certificates when they are requested.

On reflection, I think this was an ill-considered assertion. (I should add that I saw a draft of the editorial before its publication, was invited to comment, and lodged no objection to this part.) The folly is made starkly clear in the photos that accompany this angry (at NRO) post from Dave Jeffers, who runs a blog called “Salt and Light.”

To summarize: What Obama has made available is a Hawaiian “certification of live birth” (emphasis added), not a birth certificate (or what the state calls a “certificate of live birth”). The certification form provides a short, very general attestation of a few facts about the person’s birth: name and sex of the newborn; date and time of birth; city or town of birth, along with the name of the Hawaiian island and the county; the mother’s maiden name and race; the father’s name and race; and the date the certification was filed. This certification is not the same thing as the certificate, which is what I believe we were referring to in the editorial as “the state records that are used to generate birth certificates [sic] when they are requested.”

To the contrary, “the state records” are the certificate. They are used to generate the more limited birth certifications on request. As the Jeffers post shows, these state records are far more detailed. They include, for example, the name of the hospital, institution, or street address where the birth occurred; the full name, age, birthplace, race, and occupation of each parent; the mother’s residential address (and whether that address is within the city or town of birth); the signature of at least one parent (or “informant”) attesting to the accuracy of the information provided; the identity and signature of an attending physician (or other “attendant”) who certifies the occurrence of a live birth at the time and place specified; and the identity and signature of the local registrar who filed the birth record.

Plainly, this is different (additional) information from what is included in the certification. Yet, our editorial says that “several state officials have confirmed that the information in permanent state records is identical to that on the president’s birth certificate [by which we clearly meant ‘certification’],” and that the “director of Hawaii’s health department and the registrar of records each has personally verified that the information on Obama’s birth certificate [i.e., certification] is identical to that in the state’s records, the so-called vault copy.” (Italics mine.)

That misses the point. The information in the certification may be identical as far as it goes to what’s in the complete state records, but there are evidently many more details in the state records than are set forth in the certification. Contrary to the editors’ description, those who want to see the full state record — the certificate or the so-called “vault copy” — are not on a wild-goose chase for a “secondary document cloaked in darkness.” That confuses their motives (which vary) with what they’ve actually requested (which is entirely reasonable). Regardless of why people may want to see the vault copy, what’s been requested is a primary document that is materially more detailed than what Obama has thus far provided.

Now, let’s address motives for a moment. Are some of those demanding the full state records engaged in a futile quest to prove Obama is not a U.S. citizen? Are they on what the editors call “the hunt for a magic bullet that will make all the unpleasant complications of [Obama’s] election and presidency disappear”? Sure they are. But not everyone who wants to see the full state records falls into that category. I, for one, have very different reasons for being curious.

WHO IS THIS GUY?

Before January 20 of this year, Barack Obama had a negligible public record. He burst onto the national scene what seemed like five minutes before his election to the presidency: a first-term U.S. senator who actually served less than four years in that post — after a short time as a state legislator, some shadowy years as a “community organizer,” and scholastic terms at Occidental, Columbia, and Harvard that remain shrouded in mystery. The primary qualification supporters offered for Obama’s candidacy was his compelling life story, as packaged in 850 pages’ worth of the not one but two autobiographies this seemingly unaccomplished candidate had written by the age of 45.

Yet we now know that this life story is chock full of fiction. Typical and disturbing, to take just one example, is the entirely fabricated account in Dreams from My Father of Obama’s first job after college:

Eventually a consulting house to multinational corporations agreed to hire me as a research assistant. Like a spy behind enemy lines, I arrived every day at my mid-Manhattan office and sat at my computer terminal, checking the Reuters machine that blinked bright emerald messages from across the globe. As far as I could tell I was the only black man in the company, a source of shame for me but a source of considerable pride for the company’s secretarial pool. They treated me like a son, those black ladies; they told me how they expected me to run the company one day. . . . The company promoted me to the position of financial writer. I had my own office, my own secretary, money in the bank. Sometimes, coming out of an interview with Japanese financiers or German bond traders, I would catch my reflection in the elevator doors — see myself in a suit and tie, a briefcase in my hand — and for a split second I would imagine myself as a captain of industry, barking out orders, closing the deal, before I remembered who it was that I had told myself I wanted to be and felt pangs of guilt for my lack of resolve. . . .

As the website Sweetness & Light details, this is bunk. Obama did not work at “a consulting house to multinational corporations”; it was, a then-colleague of his has related, “a small company that published newsletters on international business.” He wasn’t the only black man in the company, and he didn’t have an office, have a secretary, wear a suit and tie on the job, or conduct “interviews” with “Japanese financiers or German bond traders” he was a junior copyeditor.

What’s unnerving about this is that it is so gratuitous. It would have made no difference to anyone curious about Obama’s life that he, like most of us, took a ho-hum entry-level job to establish himself. But Obama lies about the small things, the inconsequential things, just as he does about the important ones — depending on what he is trying to accomplish at any given time.

In the above fairy tale, he sought to frame his life as a morality play: the hero giving up the cushy life of the capitalist “enemy” for the virtues of community organizing. But we’ve seen this dance a hundred times. If Obama wants to strike a connection with graduating students in Moscow, he makes up a story about meeting his “future wife . . . in class” (Barack and Michelle Obama met at work). If he wants to posture about his poverty and struggle in America, he waxes eloquent about his single mother’s surviving on “food stamps” so she could use every cent to send him “to the best schools in the country” (Obama was raised by his maternal grandparents, who had good jobs and were able to pull strings to get him into an elite Hawaiian prep school). If he wants to tie himself to the civil-rights struggle of African Americans, he tells an audience in Selma, “
There was something stirring across the country because of what happened in Selma . . . so [my parents] got together and Barack Obama Jr. was born” (Obama was born in 1961, four years before the civil-rights march in Selma — by which time his parents had divorced and his mother was planning a move to Indonesia with the second of her two non-African-American husbands). If he wants to buy a home he can’t afford, he “unwittingly” collaborates with a key fundraiser (who had been publicly reported to be under federal investigation for fraud and political corruption). If he wants to sell a phony stimulus as a job-creator, he tells the country that Caterpillar has told him the stimulus will enable the company “to rehire some of the folks who were just laid off” (Caterpillar’s CEO actually said no, “we’re going to have more layoffs before we start hiring again”).

The fact is that Obama’s account of his background is increasingly revealed as a fabrication, not his life as lived; his utterances reflect the expediencies of the moment, not the truth. What is supposed to save the country from fraudulence of this sort is the media. Here, though, the establishment press is deep in Obama’s tank — so much so that they can’t even accurately report his flub of a ceremonial opening pitch lest he come off as something less than Sandy Koufax. Astonishingly, reporters see their job not as reporting Obama news but as debunking Obama news, or flat-out suppressing it. How many Americans know, for example, that as a sitting U.S. senator in 2006, Obama interfered in a Kenyan election, publicly ripping the incumbent government (a U.S. ally) for corruption while he was its guest and barnstorming with his preferred candidate: a Marxist now known to have made a secret agreement with Islamists to convert Kenya to sharia law, and whose supporters, upon losing the election, committed murder and mayhem, displacing thousands of Kenyans and plunging their country into utter chaos?

A
 MUSLIM CITIZEN OF INDONESIA
The aforementioned Indonesian interval in Obama’s childhood is instructive. Obama and the media worked in tireless harmony to refute any indication that he had ever been a Muslim. It’s now apparent, however, not only that he was raised as a Muslim while living for four years in the world’s most populous Islamic country, but that he very likely became a naturalized citizen of Indonesia.

 

Shortly after divorcing Barack Obama Sr., Obama’s mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, married an Indonesian Muslim, Lolo Soetoro Mangunharjo, whom she met — just as she had met Barack Sr. — when both were students at the University of Hawaii. At some point, Soetoro almost certainly adopted the youngster, who became known as “Barry Soetoro.” Obama’s lengthy, deeply introspective autobiographies do not address whether he was adopted by the stepfather whose surname he shared for many years, but in all likelihood that did happen in Hawaii, before the family moved to Jakarta.

Under Indonesian law, adoption before the age of six by an Indonesian male qualified a child for citizenship. According to Dreams from My Father, Obama was four when he met Lolo Soetoro; his mother married Soetoro shortly thereafter; and Obama was already registered for school when he and his mother relocated to Jakarta, where Soetoro was an oil-company executive and liaison to the Suharto government. That was in 1966, when Obama was five. Obama attended Indonesian elementary schools, which, in Suharto’s police state, were generally reserved for citizens (and students were required to carry identity cards that matched student registration information). The records of the Catholic school Obama/Soetoro attended for three years identify him as a citizen of Indonesia. Thus Obama probably obtained Indonesian citizenship through his adoption by Soetoro in Hawaii. That inference is bolstered by the 1980 divorce submission of Ann Dunham and Lolo Soetoro, filed in Hawaii state court. It said “the parties” (Ann and Lolo) had a child (name not given) who was no longer a minor (Obama was 19 at the time). If Soetoro had not adopted Obama, there would have been no basis for the couple to refer to Obama as their child — he’d have been only Ann Dunham’s child.

In any event, the records of the Catholic school and the public school Obama attended during his last year in Indonesia identify him as a Muslim. As Obama relates in Dreams from My Father, he took Koran classes. As Obama doesn’t relate in Dreams from My Father, children in Indonesia attended religious instruction in accordance with their family’s chosen faith. Moreover, acquaintances recall that young Barry occasionally attended Friday prayers at the local mosque, and Maya Soetoro-Ng, Obama’s half-sister (born after Lolo and Ann moved the family to Jakarta), told the New York Times in a 2008 interview, “My whole family was Muslim, and most of the people I knew were Muslim.” In fact, back in March 2007 — i.e., during the early “Islamic ties are good” phase of Obama’s campaign — the candidate wistfully shared with New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof his memories of the muezzin’s Arabic call to prayer: “one of the prettiest sounds on earth at sunset.” Kristof marveled at the “first-rate accent” with which Obama was able to repeat its opening lines.

T
he point here is not to join another crackpot conspiracy, the “Obama as Muslim Manchurian Candidate” canard. Obama was only ten years old when he left Indonesia; there is no known evidence of his having made an adult choice to practice Islam, and he is a professed Christian. The point is that he lies elaborately about himself and plainly doesn’t believe it’s important to be straight with the American people — to whom he is constantly making bold promises. And it makes a difference whether he was ever a Muslim. He knows that — it’s exactly why, as a candidate, he originally suggested his name and heritage would be a selling point. Obama’s religious background matters in terms of how he is perceived by Muslims (Islam rejects the notion of renouncing the faith; some Muslims, like Libyan strongman Muammar Qaddafi, make no bones about regarding Obama as a Muslim; and — as the mainstream media took pains not to report during the campaign — it is suspected that significant illegal donations poured into the Obama campaign from Islamic countries and territories). Obama’s religious background also matters in terms of how he views American policies bearing on the Muslim world.

WHEN DID INFORMATION SUDDENLY BECOME A BAD THING?

While it is all well and good to belittle the birth-certificate controversy, without it we’d know only what the media and Obama himself would tell us about his multiple citizenships, which is nothing. As noted above, we now know Obama, by operation of British and Kenyan law, was a citizen of Kenya (a status that lapsed in 1982, when he turned 21). That’s something voters would find relevant, especially when Obama’s shocking 2006 conduct in Kenya is considered. But we don’t know about his Kenyan citizenship because the media thought it was newsworthy. We know it only because of the birth-certificate controversy: Pressed to debunk the allegation that Obama was born in Kenya, his embarrassed supporters felt compelled to clarify his Kenyan citizenship.

By contrast, the question whether Obama ever was an Indonesian citizen is still unresolved, as are such related matters as whether the foreign citizenship (if he had it) ever lapsed, and whether he ever held or used an Indonesian passport — for example, during a mysterious trip to Pakistan he took in 1981, after Zia’s coup, when advisories warned Americans against traveling there. By the way, many details about that journey, too, remain unknown. Obama strangely neglected to mention it in his 850 pages of autobiography, even though the 20-year-old’s adventure included a stay at the home of prominent Pakistani politicians.

There may be perfectly benign answers to all of this. But the real question is: Why don’t the media — the watchdog legions who trekked to Sarah Palin’s Alaska hometown to scour for every kernel of gossip, and who were so desperate for Bush dirt that they ran with palpably forged military records — want to dig into Obama’s background?

Who cares that Hawaii’s full state records would doubtless confirm what we already know about Obama’s birthplace? They would also reveal interesting facts about Obama’s life: the delivering doctor, how his parents described themselves, which of them provided the pertinent information, etc. Wasn’t the press once in the business of interesting — and even not-so-interesting — news?

And why would Obama not welcome Hawaii’s release of any record in its possession about the facts and circumstances of his birth? Isn’t that kind of weird? It would, after all, make the whole issue go away and, if there’s nothing there, make those who’ve obsessed over it look like fools. Why should I need any better reason to be curious than Obama’s odd resistance to so obvious a resolution?

There’s speculation out there from the former CIA officer Larry Johnson
who is no right-winger and is convinced the president was born in Hawaii that the full state records would probably show Obama was adopted by the Indonesian Muslim Lolo Soetoro and became formally known as “Barry Soetoro.” Obama may have wanted that suppressed for a host of reasons: issues about his citizenship, questions about his name (it’s been claimed that Obama represented in his application to the Illinois bar that he had never been known by any name other than Barack Obama), and the undermining of his (false) claim of remoteness from Islam. Is that true? I don’t know and neither do you.

But we should know. The point has little to do with whether Obama was born in Hawaii. I’m quite confident that he was. The issue is: What is the true personal history of the man who has been sold to us based on nothing but his personal history? On that issue, Obama has demonstrated himself to be an unreliable source and, sadly, we can’t trust the media to get to the bottom of it. What’s wrong with saying, to a president who promised unprecedented “transparency”: Give us all the raw data and we’ll figure it out for ourselves?

— National Review’s Andrew C. McCarthy is a senior fellow at the National Review Institute and the author of Willful Blindness: A Memoir of the Jihad (Encounter Books, 2008).



TOPICS: Editorial; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: alinsky; article2section1; barackobama; bho44; birthcertificate; birthers; certifigate; colb; indonesia; kenya; kenyan; muslim; naturalborn; obama; obamanoncitizenissue; taqiya; taqiyya; truth
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 101-102 next last
To: Jim Robinson

Very good article.


21 posted on 08/01/2009 6:01:53 PM PDT by freekitty (Give me back my conservative vote; then find me a real conservative to vote for)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Jim Robinson

http://www.westernjournalism.com/?p=2748

Another Department of Health Lie Repeated by Media Smoke and deception continue to surround birth of baby Obama

Smoke and deception continue to surround birth of baby Obama

From the Honolulu Advertiser July 28:

“Such vital statistics, however, were not sent to the newspapers by the general public but by the Health Department, which received the information directly from hospitals, Okubo said.”

Did Okubo really say this? Or did the Advertiser put words in her mouth. If she did, the statement is deceptive.

According to an investigative report we published on westernjournalism.com,

BC2. In 1961, if a person was born in Hawaii but not attended by a physician or midwife, then all that was required was that one of the parents send in a birth certificate to be filed. The birth certificate could be filed by mail. There appears to have been no requirement for the parent to actually physically appear before “the local registrar of the district.” It would have been very easy for a relative to forge an absent parent’s signature to a form and mail it in. In addition, if a claim was made that “neither parent of the newborn child whose birth is unattended as above provided is able to prepare a birth certificate, the local registrar shall secure the necessary information from any person having knowledge of the birth and prepare and file the certificate.” (Section 57-8&9) …Even if they had been, there is and was no requirement for a physician or midwife to witness, state or report that the baby was born in Hawaii.

Therefore, contrary to Okubo’s implication, the vital statistics sent on by the Dept of Health to the newspapers were almost certainly not limited to information provided by hospitals. In 1961 in Hawaii, non-hospital births were far more common than they are now.


22 posted on 08/01/2009 6:21:17 PM PDT by AJFavish (www.allanfavish.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Jim Robinson
An excellent article all the way through, except for a couple of minor points, where he concedes things to the enemy that don't need to be conceded.

The editorial desire to put to rest the “Obama was born in Kenya” canard is justifiable.

Well, we really don't know this, do we? I have yet to see any evidence that really PROVES where Obama was born: Hawaii, Kenya, Canada, or who knows where? Certainly this question is only one of many. But I don't see why we should concede that he was born in Hawaii as long as Obama continues to stonewall and hide all the real, solid evidence.

Also, McCarthy asserts that Obama is a "professed Christian." Well, not quite. He said he was a "member" of that Chicago church. But that church, as it happens, does not require its members to be baptized. And it allows Muslims to join without renouncing their faith.

Sorry, there are many different kinds and degrees of "Christians," but if you aren't baptized, you aren't a Christian, according to the understanding of virtually all Christians--Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox.

Obama has also said, and posted on his website, that he was "never" a Muslim. Well, we know that was an outright lie, because he was born a Muslim, adopted as a Muslim, went to school as a Muslim, studied the Qran, attended a mosque, said the Muslim prayers that make you a Muslim if you say them, and so forth.

Perhaps he is no longer a Muslim. That we don't know. But he certainly WAS a Muslim. And he has never exactly said that he has given up his Muslim faith--presumably because then a billion Muslims would consider him an Apostate.

I agree that we should not get hung up on one point, for instance that he was born in Kenya. Maybe he was, and maybe he wasnt. It's not the end of the world if he wasn't.

But conservatives make a mistake when they concede points unnecessarily to their enemies. What does that gain us? Will they love us more? I don't think so. They'll just go after some other point. It's like saying that we'd might as well confirm Sotomayor, because she's unbeatable, and then fight the next one. Sorry, but that will only make it HARDER to fight the next one, not easier.

If, as I suspect he may, Obama comes up with a forged "original" birth certificate in the next couple of months, that should not be allowed to shut us up, either. But it won't do the least bit of good to relinquish the issue beforehand--they would still use it for triumphalist purposes. And the obvious response should be, "How about letting a trusted person request the original documents from the Hawaiian authorities? Why should we accept this as genuine, when you have so persistently lied and stonewalled?

Give a liberal an inch, and he'll take a mile.

23 posted on 08/01/2009 6:26:18 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Jim Robinson

Excellent reading.

Thanks for posting it. I hope things are going well for you!


24 posted on 08/01/2009 6:48:09 PM PDT by NonLinear (If your outgo exceeds your income, then your upkeep will be your downfall.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Jim Robinson; Calm_Cool_and_Elected

ping


25 posted on 08/01/2009 6:53:01 PM PDT by Calm_Cool_and_Elected (Who is John Thompson?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Cicero; All

“but if you aren’t baptized, you aren’t a Christian, according to the understanding of virtually all Christians—Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox.”

I AM NOT IN ANY WAY DEFENDING POTUS OBAMA. I just want to clarify a point of some variants of protestant Christian doctrine. Southern Baptists, the largest Baptist body, DO NOT tie being “Baptized” with being a Christian (meaning being Baptisted makes you a Christian). You become a “Christian” first by faith in Jesus Christ and Him alone to save you from your sins and then you are “Baptisted” to show the world on whose side you sit. I have known many genuine “Christians” that went a long time before being Baptisted. However, Southern Baptists do tie Baptist with Church membership. While we acknowledge that someone who has saving faith (that implies many things) in Jesus Christ alone is a Christian, we don’t admit into church membership anyone that has not been scripturally Baptisted (immersed not sprinkled - to symbolize death burial and ressurection.

Bottom line: Being a Christian and Baptism are not the same thing amoung Southern Baptists. Baptism IS NOT a “sacrement” amoung Southern Baptists (sacrements inpart grace), it is an “ordinance” (a symbolic act to demonstrate a principle).

Now is President Obama a “Christian.” IMO only in the nominal sense. I do not believe he trully grasps the concept of sin and salvation from it. I don’t know his heart, so my opinion means nothing.


26 posted on 08/01/2009 6:54:13 PM PDT by Sola Veritas (Trying to speak truth - not always with the best grammar or spelling)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Cicero
but if you aren't baptized, you aren't a Christian

Was Jesus a Christian before he was baptized?

27 posted on 08/01/2009 6:59:28 PM PDT by ColdWater
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Cicero

Where can I get some pure water. Just in case.

“The Catholic Church prescribes that in case of emergency any person, even someone not baptized, can baptize, if he or she has the required intention. The baptizer is to say: “[Name], I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” while pouring water three times on the head. The sign of the cross is then made over the recipient. The omission of the name or the sign of the cross and the addition of “Amen” at the end have no effect on the validity of the sacrament. The validity of baptism is doubtful if impure water is used. In such a case, the sacrament should be repeated conditionally with certainly valid water as soon as possible if the emergency persists.”


28 posted on 08/01/2009 7:04:55 PM PDT by ColdWater
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Cicero

“Sorry, there are many different kinds and degrees of “Christians,” but if you aren’t baptized, you aren’t a Christian, according to the understanding of virtually all Christians—Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox.”

This might be a requirement to be a member of a given church, but it is not a requirement to be a “Christian”. John 3:16 does not mention baptism. The thief on the cross beside Jesus was not baptised, yet Jesus welcomed him.

Jesus himself was not a “Christian”. He did not come to found a religion, but to draw all men to the Father.


29 posted on 08/01/2009 7:06:18 PM PDT by GGpaX4DumpedTea
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Jim Robinson

I’m guessing that Obama’s hiding the gift certificate because instead of the name of the father on the document, it has a “Top 10” list...


30 posted on 08/01/2009 7:07:01 PM PDT by Caipirabob (Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ColdWater

Kind of a silly question. If a Christian is a follower of Christ, then the answer is “no.”

Also, baptism is necessary because of original sin. But Jesus was born without sin. He allowed John the Baptist to Baptize him as a lesson to others. But as John himself said, his baptism in the Jordan was merely a forerunner of what Jesus would later do.

“I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.”

Yes, the meaning of that needs discussion too. But it points up the difference between John’s pre-Christian baptism and baptism in the Church that Jesus later founded. John was the fore-runner, the last of the Prophets.


31 posted on 08/01/2009 7:07:07 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: ColdWater

“Was Jesus a Christian before he was baptized?”

Jesus was not a Christian after he was baptized by John in the Jordan.


32 posted on 08/01/2009 7:08:58 PM PDT by GGpaX4DumpedTea
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: GGpaX4DumpedTea

There is also baptism of desire. And obviously the thief couldn’t get down off the cross, get baptized, and climb back up. But this is really off the point of this thread. Are you saying that Obama didn’t need to be baptized because he was like the Good Thief? Seems unlikely to me.


33 posted on 08/01/2009 7:09:14 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: ColdWater

That could be the DUMBEST question I’ve seen on FR.


34 posted on 08/01/2009 7:11:37 PM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion....the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Jim Robinson

He LIED about his first real job! He made it sound like he was an EXECUTIVE when he was a Junior Copy Editor!! LOL!! PATHETIC.


35 posted on 08/01/2009 7:13:05 PM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion....the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ann Archy
A Junior Copy Editor that was subsequently picked by Bill Ayers to serve as the Chairman of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge.
36 posted on 08/01/2009 7:19:08 PM PDT by Cyropaedia ("Virtue cannot separate itself from reality without becoming a principal of evil...".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Cyropaedia

Was that his second job?


37 posted on 08/01/2009 7:21:11 PM PDT by Ann Archy (Abortion....the Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Jim Robinson
Awesome article. Sums up everything very well.
38 posted on 08/01/2009 7:34:47 PM PDT by edge10 (Obama lied, babies died!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ann Archy
Nope. He actually got a job working as a lecturer at the University of Chicago after that.

Even as the head of the CAC he did a lousy job. Burned through 160 million dollars with little improvement in students grades. From a behavioral standpoint, the kids were reportedly worse than before.

39 posted on 08/01/2009 7:38:41 PM PDT by Cyropaedia ("Virtue cannot separate itself from reality without becoming a principal of evil...".)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: ProtectOurFreedom
It gets deeper! ...

When Barry graduated from High School he was officially Barry Soetoro. When his mother obtained her divorce from Lolo in 1980 she claimed there were two legal children to the marriage and one was over eighteen needing educational assitance. Barry entered Occidental in 1980 as Barry Soetoro and thus abrogated his American citizenship when he presented himself as the adopted Soetoro of an Indonesian father. ... When did he legally change his name so that he could swear falsely in IL that he had used no other name buy Barack Obama?

40 posted on 08/01/2009 7:41:21 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 101-102 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson