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Freeper help: The Certificate
self | 7/29/09 | LS

Posted on 07/29/2009 8:58:42 AM PDT by LS

Freepers: in preparing for radio shows and appearances, I need some information. Yes, it's here (someplace) on FR, usually buried in a myriad of links. So I'm asking your help to get some concise and clear answers on some "birther" issues:

1) Is there a difference between a "Certificate of Live Birth" and a "Birth Certificate?" If so, what are the specific differences, and can a non-U.S. citizen obtain either or both?

2) Was, or was not, Pakistan on the State Department's "banned travel" list when Obama went there. This has been asserted and denied. Can anyone provide a list of such states from "da gubment" on the date in question?

3) In the noise and confusion, I have heard that a) the Hawaiian records were destroyed in 2001 or 2002; that b) the birth certificate exists; or c) a copy of the birth certificate exists. Which is it?

4) Is such personal information on a public figure subject to FOIA? (I know, it would take years, even if it was, but just asking).

5) What officials have claimed to have actually seen this, and would they know what to look for (if they inspected it at all?)


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: article2section1; barackobama; bho44; birthcertificate; birthers; certifigate; colb; imom; naturalborn; obama; obamanoncitizenissue; obroma
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To: ckilmer

Well, this is fantastic. Long, but fantastic. Thank you.


21 posted on 07/29/2009 9:12:04 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: LS
As for the Pakistan stuff, here's a pdf of a State Dept advisory from August 1981. What it advises is that you can pick up a 30-day tourist visa at the airport in Pakistan when you get there, but that you're crossing the border from India you need to already have your visa, because they don't give them out at that crossing.

State Dept. Travel Advisory 81-33A

It's also worth noting that in 1981, the Reagan administration sent Pakistan billions in military and economic aid.

As far as I know, the only two countries that have ever been banned for Americans to travel to are Cuba and Libya. Hell, you can go to North Korea as far as the US cares. The North Koreans won't let you in, but the US won't stop you.

Also, here's a New York Times travel section article from 1981 about visiting beautiful Lahore. LAHORE, A SURVIVOR WITH A BITTERSWEET HISTORY

22 posted on 07/29/2009 9:12:48 AM PDT by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: LS

This is a COMMON misperception that people keep throwing out on this site. It hinges on his mother being legally married. She wasn’t. Obama Sr was already LEGALLY married in a marriage recognized by Kenyan and UK Law.

Hawaii would have recognized THAT marriage as legal and therefore the marriage to Ann could not take place IF THEY HAD TOLD THE TRUTH ON THE MARRIAGE APPLICATION.

Thus the out of wedlock provision is applicable.

If people are going to quote the married part of the statute then they should ALSO put a caveat in there about the marriage not being legal.

If I didn’t tell you this..you would assume the poster was right and go out half cocked on a radio show.

This is why I am getting tired of this claim that he is not a US citizen if born in Kenya. NOT SO. You would have to argue that Hawaii would not have recognized the tribal marriage that was LEGAL in Kenya. The problem is,, they would recognize it.

The other out is if you can find something that requires CONTIGUOUS one year residency RIGHT BEFORE BIRTH. I have seen that no where. Maybe it is out there.

You can read a Supreme Court case that talks about the out of wedlock part of the statute.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-2071.ZS.html


23 posted on 07/29/2009 9:12:53 AM PDT by RummyChick
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To: silverleaf

Yes, good stuff. The link posted above is absolutely killer.


24 posted on 07/29/2009 9:13:15 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: Stayfree

Yes, fantastic. Thanks.


25 posted on 07/29/2009 9:13:39 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: raybbr

Good. Thanks. I see now.


26 posted on 07/29/2009 9:13:58 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: LS
2) Was, or was not, Pakistan on the State Department's "banned travel" list when Obama went there. This has been asserted and denied. Can anyone provide a list of such states from "da gubment" on the date in question?

There is no such State Department "banned travel" list.

3) In the noise and confusion, I have heard that a) the Hawaiian records were destroyed in 2001 or 2002; that b) the birth certificate exists; or c) a copy of the birth certificate exists. Which is it?

Original Hawaiian birth records certainly still exist, either on paper or microfilm.

4) Is such personal information on a public figure subject to FOIA? (I know, it would take years, even if it was, but just asking).

No, FOIA is federal law and Hawaiian birth info is governed by Hawaiian law. It is not public information.

5) What officials have claimed to have actually seen this, and would they know what to look for (if they inspected it at all?)

Why wouldn't they "know what to look for?" They deal with the same information every day.

27 posted on 07/29/2009 9:14:58 AM PDT by iowamark (certified by Michael Steele as "ugly and incendiary")
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To: LS

The information you are requesting requires that you show a valid birth certificate to verify your identity, before it can be provided....


28 posted on 07/29/2009 9:15:38 AM PDT by MrDem (From Morning in America to Mourning in America...)
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To: iowamark

We had business people traveling to Pakistan during that time period. US citizens could go, but they did need visa.
There is no doubt that Pakistan and Indonesia both know more about what passport Obama was traveling on during those visits. I don’t think he would have needed a visa to go to Pakistan if he was carrying an Indonesian passport.


29 posted on 07/29/2009 9:17:34 AM PDT by Oldexpat
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To: LS

Do yourself a favor and start here.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/?page_id=2697


30 posted on 07/29/2009 9:18:59 AM PDT by smokingfrog (No man's life, liberty or property is safe while the legislature is in session. I AM JIM THOMPSON)
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To: afraidfortherepublic

Dunham’s travels need to be reconstructed, in order to establish that she was OOTC at the time.

Its hard for me to believe that she jetted off to Kenya,
Indonesia, or anywhere else during her late term.

Does any such evidence exist?


31 posted on 07/29/2009 9:20:49 AM PDT by rahbert ("when they feel the heat they'll see the light")
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To: LS

It’s immigration law. The original immigration site on find law has condensed the wording to just the title of the law, but I have the actual wording of the law on an attorney’s website. UCLA Law Professor Volkh said in a Chicago Times article it didn’t matter where he was born, his mother was a citizen. I emailed the information and confirmed my information and made a RETRACTION on his website.

Ok, so here is the immigration law website, take note of the 1952 to 1986. Keep in mind that the ‘anchor’ baby law that says if you born on US soil you are a citizen regardless of your parents citizenship status until 1986. And the law was not retroactive.

http://www.brianwilliamslaw.com/lawyer-attorney-5365F1DF-5EEB-4DC0-BD003808196CBB9E.html

4. December 24, 1952 to November 13, 1986
If at the time of your birth both your parents were U.S. citizens and at least one had a prior residence in the United States, you automatically acquired U.S. citizenship with no conditions for retaining it.

If only one parent was a U.S. citizen at the time of your birth, that parent must have resided in the United States for at least ten years, at least five of which had to be after the age of 16. There are no conditions placed on retaining this type of citizenship. If your one U.S. citizen parent is your father and you were born outside of marriage, the same rules apply if your father legally legitimated you before your 21st birthday and you were unmarried at the time. If legitimization occurred after November 14, 1986, your father must have established paternity prior to your 18th birthday, either by acknowledgment or by court order, and must have stated in writing that he would support you financially until your 18th birthday.

http://immigration.findlaw.com/immigration/immigration-citizenship-naturalization/immigration-citizenship-naturalization-did-you-know.html


32 posted on 07/29/2009 9:25:01 AM PDT by autumnraine (You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out!)
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: smokingfrog

You are doing her NO favor to send her to a site that is putting up misleading info.

Why does that site not address the out of wedlock provision of that law? Because it doesn’t fit their agenda?????

Not only do they need to put the out of wedlock provision on there..they also need to find the law or the case law that would allow Obama’s mother and father to be considered married for the purposes of that law when at least one parent lied in order to get married.


34 posted on 07/29/2009 9:25:51 AM PDT by RummyChick
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To: Presley OBannon

Yes, this is great. Thanks.


35 posted on 07/29/2009 9:28:11 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: LS
1) Is there a difference between a "Certificate of Live Birth" and a "Birth Certificate?"

I'd recommend you go HERE: Obama's "birth certificate" - the devil's in the details

It will tell you MORE than any other single source will about the entire "birth certificate" program and its history in Hawaii. There are numerous LOOPHOLES for Obama, his mother and guardian (grandmother "Toots") to have exploited -- NUMEROUS loopholes.

36 posted on 07/29/2009 9:28:30 AM PDT by BP2 (I think, therefore I'm a conservative)
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To: autumnraine

Got it. Thanks.


37 posted on 07/29/2009 9:28:37 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: MrDem

LOL. Will you accept a certification of live birth?


38 posted on 07/29/2009 9:29:08 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: iowamark

They wouldn’t know what to look for if they were covering up, right?


39 posted on 07/29/2009 9:29:51 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: Oldexpat

And an Indonesian passport would have made any possible Haj that he did as a side trip on that trip to Pakistan easier.


40 posted on 07/29/2009 9:30:30 AM PDT by bvw
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