The Dirty Little Secret Is Out: Religious Faith and Evolution Are Incompatible

ICR ^ | March 20, 2009 | Frank Sherwin, M.A.

[GodGunsGuts]

In a recent book review, Jerry Coyne, professor of ecology and evolution at the University of Chicago, admitted that the secular worldview of macroevolution (the development of complex life from “simpler” forms) is at odds with Christian faith...

[Fichori]

“Nobody has ever been a YEC without being a Biblical literalist first.” [excerpt]

Well, unless you're an omnipresent omnipotent all knowing being (or a teenager), then you just made an assertion regarding something that you have know way of knowing to be true.

IOW, shoe leather sandwich.

[Fichori]

‘…posted by FR's resident YEC-spammer…’ [excerpt]

Is that really how you want people to treat you?

[GodGunsGuts]

==Many mainline churches today do believe the Bible is allegory.

It should therefore come as no surprise that virtually all the mainline denominations are on the decline. When the church tells you that it’s ok to twist the Bible to say whatever you want, it isn’t long before you realize that this can be done just as easily by staying home on Sunday.

[Buck W.]

The only deflected question was mine in post 85. Perhaps you can provide an answer, as the original poster has refused.

[MyTwoCopperCoins]

Oh, yawn. Vimanas. From literature of the Vedic Aryans. You won't find a single mention of any vimana in the "Bible" of the Hindus- the Bhagavad-Gita.

So, there is some truth present, but a crucial truth is missing from Hinduism, that being the one, true God.

ARJUNA: WHO is that BRAHMA? What that Soul of Souls,
The ADHYATMAN? What, Thou Best of All!
Thy work, the KARMA? Tell me what it is
Thou namest ADHIBHUTA? What again
Means ADHIDAIVA? Yea, and how it comes	5
Thou canst be ADHIYAJNA in thy flesh?
Slayer of Madhu! Further, make me know
How good men find thee in the hour of death?
KRISHNA: I BRAHMA am! the One Eternal God,
And ADHYATMAN is My Being’s name,	10
The Soul of Souls! What goeth forth from Me,
Causing all life to live, is KARMA called:
And, Manifested in divided forms,
I am the ADHIBHUTA, Lord of Lives;
And ADHIDAIVA, Lord of all the Gods,	15
Because I am PURUSHA, who begets.
And ADHIYAJNA, Lord of Sacrifice,
I—speaking with thee in this body here—
Am, thou embodied one! (for all the shrines
Flame unto Me!) And, at the hour of death,	20
He that hath meditated Me alone,
In putting off his flesh, comes forth to Me,
Enters into My Being—doubt thou not!
But, if he meditated otherwise
At hour of death, in putting off the flesh,	25
He goes to what he looked for, Kunti’s Son!
Because the Soul is fashioned to its like.
Have Me, then, in thy heart always! and fight!
Thou too, when heart and mind are fixed on Me,
Shalt surely come to Me! All come who cleave	30
With never-wavering will of firmest faith,
Owning none other Gods: all come to Me,
The Uttermost, Purusha, Holiest!
Whoso hath known Me, Lord of sage and singer,
Ancient of days; of all the Three Worlds Stay,	35
Boundless,—but unto every atom Bringer
Of that which quickens it: whoso, I say,
Hath known My form, which passeth mortal knowing;
Seen my effulgence—which no eye hath seen—
Than the sun’s burning gold more brightly glowing,	40
Dispering darkness,—unto him hath been
Right life! And, in the hour when life is ending,
With mind set fast and trustful piety,
Drawing still breath beneath calm brows unbending,
In happy peace that faithful one doth die,—	45
In glad peace passeth to Purusha’s heaven,
The place which they who read the Vedas name
AKSHARAM, “Ultimate;” whereto have striven
Saints and ascetics—their road is the same.
That way—the highest way—goes he who shuts	50
The gates of all his sense, locks desire
Safe in his heart, centres the vital airs
Upon his parting thought, steadfastly set;
And, murmuring OM, the sacred syllable—
Emblem of BRAHM—dies, meditating Me.	55
For who, none other Gods regarding, looks
Ever to Me, easily am I gained
By such a Yôgi; and, attaining Me,
They fall not—those Mahatmas—back to birth,
To life, which is the place of pain, which ends,	60
But take the way of utmost blessedness.
The worlds, Arjuna!—even Brahma’s world—
Roll back again from Death to Life’s unrest;
But they, O Kunti’s Son! that reach to Me,
Taste birth no more. If ye know Brahma’s Day	65
Which is a thousand Yugas; if ye know
The thousand Yugas making Brahma’s Night,
Then know ye Day and Night as He doth know!
When that vast Dawn doth break, th’ Invisible
Is brought anew into the Visible;	70
When that deep Night doth darken, all which is
Fades back again to Him Who sent it forth;
Yea! this vast company of living things—
Again and yet again produced—expires
At Brahma’s Nightfall; and, at Brahma’s Dawn,	75
Riseth, without its will, to life new-born.
But—higher, deeper, innermost—abides
Another Life, not like the life of sense,
Escaping sight, unchanging. This endures
When all created things have passed away:	80
This is that Life named the Unmanifest,
The Infinite! the All! the Uttermost.
Thither arriving none return. That Life
Is Mine, and I am there! And, Prince! by faith
Which wanders not, there is a way to come	85
Thither. I, the PURUSHA, I Who spread
The Universe around me—in Whom dwell
All living Things—may so be reached and seen!
Richer than holy fruit on Vedas growing,
Greater than gifts, better than prayer or fast,	90
Such wisdom is! The Yôgi, this way knowing,
Comes to the Utmost Perfect Peace at last.
Here endeth Chapter VIII. of the Bhagavad-Gîtâ, entitled
“Aksharaparabrahmayôg,” or “The Book of
Religion by Devotion to the One Supreme God”	95

[Zero Sum]

In a recent book review, Jerry Coyne, professor of ecology and evolution at the University of Chicago, admitted that the secular worldview of macroevolution (the development of complex life from “simpler” forms) is at odds with Christian faith. Creation scientists have been saying this for decades

Well, at least atheists and YEC's can agree on something... which should by itself raise giant red flags about this specious conclusion.

[Fichori]

Excellent points! (all of them)

[Iscool]

The vast majority of Biblical scholars agree that the authors of the New Testament were NOT the original apostles.

Never heard of such a thing...

If that was true, neither you nor I have a legitimate religion...

I don't what scholars you are referring to but it's going quite a stretch to call them 'scholars'...

The apostles and original disciples wrote the NT scriptures...I wouldn't follow any one or any religion that claims otherwise...

[RegulatorCountry]

Oh, yawn. Vimanas.

Do you usually respond to dark ennui with a copious Hindu data dump, lol?

Which of the Vedas do you reject, and which do you accept? Are you a cafeteria Hindu?

Nice neo-Shakespearean translation of the Bhagvad-Gita, by the way. So poetic. Worked very well for Joseph Smith.

[itsahoot]

Well, there goes the Roman Catholic Church.

The Pope contrary to popular belief is not infallible, nor does IQ prove understanding.

Lev 26:1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up [any] image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I [am] the LORD your God.

[MyTwoCopperCoins]

2000 years ago, literacy was the privilege of the few.

There is no way of guaranteeing the fidelity of transmission of written words, without undue influence, in any way possible. Religion was the key to controlling the masses. To tell me that it was not abused by the people 2000 years ago, to control other people, would be ridiculous.

All religious texts, everywhere on the planet, are all works of man. The Bible was compiles several years after this supposed Christ was supposedly crucified. Ditto with the Quran; the Torah is even older, and even more unreliable in terms of authenticity. Likewise, the Hindu texts.

All, works of Man. The papacy is a seat of power. Once so powerful, it carved up the world, for rival states. It sold salvation, and sin, for monetary gains. The Bible has had several books added to, removed from, or altered, throughout its history. It has always been under the control of a fraction of the population, at a time when books and written matter, were the privilege of the even fewer.

People can't trust with absolute certainty, the authenticity of the things a year ago, in spite of all the tools available at their disposal today, and yet, many billions are prepared to put their lives at stake, for something made up eons ago. Such is the folly of man.

[itsahoot]

To think you can get an exact, perfect, literal translation from old Hebrew to old Greek to Modern English is absurd.

To think God could not leave His words, exactly as He intended is absurd. Either He is in charge or He isn't. If He is it matters, if not then you have no hope. Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow you die.

But Jesus did make a lot of statements, but one that is compelling to me is , "If it were not so, I would have told you."

Now read Revelation, and note it is written by Jesus Himself, transcribed by His servant.

[WVKayaker]

I was responding to a drawing of the Inquisition,

Aren't you the guys that show Jesus still on the cross? Don't you use beads to pray? Do you have saints to plead for hrlp?

Jesus is the Answer! The only One. It is not a church organization, GRiend.

Have a good lfe. I hope you know Jesus as your personal savior. Your priest can't give you anything but advice!!

[MyTwoCopperCoins]

Hahaha! The translation is over a century old. It's not in Hebrew either. If you know Sanskrit, you can compare each line, phrase-by-phrase, to the original. Simple as that.

The Bhagavad-Gita, Translated by Sir Edwin Arnold. Vol. XLV, Part 4. The Harvard Classics. New York: P.F. Collier & Son, 1909–14.

Also, see my post above this one.

[WVKayaker]

help, FRiend

[MyTwoCopperCoins]

Are you a cafeteria Hindu?

KRISHNA: Yea! thou hast seen, Arjuna! because I loved thee well,
The secret countenance of Me, revealed by mystic spell,	310
Shining, and wonderful, and vast, majestic, manifold,
Which none save thou in all the years had favor to behold:
For not by Vedas cometh this, nor sacrifice, nor alms,
Nor works well-done, nor penance long, nor prayers nor chaunted psalms,
That mortal eyes should bear to view the Immortal Soul unclad,	315
Prince of the Kurus! This was kept for thee alone! Be glad!
Let no more trouble shake thy heart because thine eyes have seen
My terror with My glory. As I before have been
So will I be again for thee; with lightened heart behold!
Once more I am thy Krishna, the form thou knew’st of old!	320
SANJAYA: These words to Arjuna spake
Vâsudev, and straight did take
Back again the semblance dear
Of the well-loved charioteer;
Peace and joy it did restore	325
When the Prince beheld once more
Mighty BRAHMA’s form and face
Clothed in Krishna’s gentle grace.
ARJUNA: Now that I see come back, Janardana!
This friendly human frame, my mind can think	330
Calm thoughts once more; my heart beats still again!
KRISHNA: Yea! it was wonderful and terrible
To view me as thou didst, dear Prince! The gods
Dread and desire continually to view!
Yet not by Vedas, nor from sacrifice,	335
Nor penance, nor gift-giving, nor with prayer
Shall any so behold, as thou hast seen!
Only by fullest service, perfect faith,
And uttermost surrender am I known
And seen, and entered into, Indian Prince!	340
Who doeth all for Me; who findeth Me
In all; adoreth always; loveth all
Which I have made, and Me, for Love’s sole end,
That man, Arjuna! unto Me doth wend.
Here endeth Chapter XI. of the Bhagavad-Gîtâ,	345
entitled “Viswarupdarsanam,” or “The Book
of the Manifesting of the One
and Manifold”

[Iscool]

“For the Early Church, the BIBLE did not exist

Then you are calling a liar the very scriptures that claim otherwise...Peter regognized and acknowledged that the letters (epistles) that Paul wrote and preached from was 'scripture'...

Also, the Catholic Church is the MOTHER of the Bible.

Again, sorry...Is this one of the truths your religion gets from the scripture??? I think not...

You will notice that no book of the New Testament references chapter and verse of a New Testament book, by name.

The NT apostles didn't name their 'books'...They were letters to different churches and groups...And Peter referenced Paul's BOOKS...

The Bible did not exist until the Catholic Church decided to create the Bible. This is FACT!

Just like evolution, eh??? Do you mean a leather bound book with gilded edges and a blue ribbon for a placemarker??? Or do you mean the scriptures???

The scriptures were written, carried around, copied and distrubuted by the apostles...And they may have been catholic (if you want to translate into Latin) but they certainly were not Catholic...

You are an anti Catholic bigot.

Yah, and I discriminate too...

[RegulatorCountry]

Hahaha! The translation is over a century old.

So, it was concurrent with the oddly Elizabethan-sounding "angel" Moroni appearing to Joseph Smith?

Do you even know which century Shakespeare inhabited? Hahaha, it was three centuries prior.

Are you saying that Sanskrit can only translate into lofty, archaic prose sounding remarkably like the King James Bible?

Maybe Moroni was responsible for the English Bhagvad-Gita, too!

[Iscool]

Also, those who translated the King James version referenced the Vulgate and Greek and Hebrew versions as well.

Well of course they referenced Greek and Hebrew...But the Latin Vulgate??? Pure nonsense...

[RegulatorCountry]

OK, MyTwoCopperCoins. After two copious data dumps, it's time for you to come clean. You're not Hindu. You're merely touting Hinduism because you believe the Hindu account of creation to be friendlier to your fundamental belief, which is evolution.

Remember, there's a lengthy thread lurking on FR, to back up my contention.

So, enlighten us all.