Posted on 11/25/2008 10:22:41 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
A team of Princeton University scientists has discovered that chains of proteins found in most living organisms act like adaptive machines, possessing the ability to control their own evolution.
The scientists do not know how the cellular machinery guiding this process may have originated, but they emphatically said it does not buttress the case for intelligent design, a controversial notion that posits the existence of a creator responsible for complexity in nature...
(Excerpt) Read more at princeton.edu ...
They were alive, therefore these were inside a body. They are not examples of consciousness outside of a body.
Thank you for your honesty. Please tell us of how the Heisenberg Principle asserts anything more than the inability of man to conclude anything more than he cannot predict the speed and location of a subatomic particle and any one point in time. It says nothing about cause. For you to assert than anything that came to be did not have a cause is to step outside of this time, space, matter, energy continuum, and for the naturalistic materialist, that is not an option.
Tell me, what has come to be, from nothing, from a scientific point of view.
“ASTRONAUTS DISCOVER FASCINATING FOSSIL
22 MARCH 2035 — Astronauts exploring the Cydonia region of Mars as part of the Brazilian expedition to the Red Planet made a fascinating discovery Thursday. The astronauts, who are part of the Joao Gilberto Station survey team, were using their rover’s crane to raise a large stone for study when they discoved an object lying in the cavity where the stone had been. Upon examination, the object was identified as a Remington manual typewriter, circa 1933. The existence of the object was reported to Earth, setting of a firestorm of interest around the globe. Media and religious authorities hailed the discovery as the first tangible evidence of life outside of Earth.
“Not so fast, says Dr. Raskol Petrokeph of the Richard Dawkins Institute. ‘It only looks like a typewriter to us because our brains have evolved to see structure in nature where no structure actually exists. The fact that the Cydonia object appears to be a manual typewriter of Earthly manufacture does not make that assumption true,” he said in an interview Saturday. ‘Since we know of no means by which a 1933 model typewriter could have gotten to Mars, Occam’s Razor tells us that the simplest explanation for its existence is that it was sculpted by chance from Martian materials by natural forces at some time in Mars’ past.’
“When asked to explain how the random action of wind, sand, and possibly water could have created a functional typewriter, complete with a set of keys bearing the 26 letters of the Roman alphabet, Dr. Petrokeph cited the many seeming coincidences that nature has produced throughout time. ‘We know that natural forces can produce objects of great complexity given enough billions of years. After all, here on Earth, random chance acting on a puddle of goo over the course of four billion years produced J.S. Bach,’ he said. ‘Bearing that in mind, it’s no great leap to accept that random chance plus Martian wind could sculpt a black 1933 Remington Model #4 typewriter with the serial number V502880 and a tendency to drop the semicolon.’
“Members of the Brazilan survey team, however, reportedly remain unconvinced. ‘Dude, it’s a typewriter. It was made by somebody’, said Giberto Credo, survey team leader. ‘I don’t know who made it, or how it got here, but I know a typewriter when I see it. There’s no way it was made by random chance. It’s obviously a product of design. Only an idiot would think otherwise.”
Quantum events have no cause in the classical sense. Certainly no local cause. This may or may not hold as we learn more, but the best empirical evidence is that things at the quantum level happen without cause.
Perhaps you have a solution for the infinite regress involved in the unmoved mover, but it is logically more consistent to assume that there are uncaused events. It’s certainly consistent with experiment.
Tell us where the laws of physics have been abridged. Forensics, the Principle of Uniformity, scientific method all seem to depend upon these principles which allow us to apply the philosophical law of logic.
As to why we will be able to discover them, I suppose one might assume that we might never discover anything. But, science is the process of discovery and of discovering causes. Scientist have been laborously working for centuries to discover an order imposed upon this universe. I suppose we could all stop that now.
"We delude ourselves into thinking the consequence, today's biota, are actually the result of random rather than "directed" processes."
Evolution is not simply some random process. It is a "directed process". It has always been understood to be so. That's the whole point. It is natural selection that provides the direction.
I agree that many scientists do dodge the question, but it is incorrect to say that nobody can define it, or offer a naturalistic theory of consciousness.
Simplest and best statement of the facts that I've seen.
Lazarus of Bethany. His death, burial, and resurrection by Jesus after being entombed for four days ("Lord, by this time he stinketh") was witnessed and attested to by many, including Jesus' enemies.
But of course Lazarus doesn't count, because the story of his resurrection is found in the eleventh chapter of the Gospel of St. John, and for some reason contemporaneous historical documentation from the Bible doesn't count.
(Western) scientists assume order and discoverability because of the basis of their culture - the old and new testament of the Bible.
Islamic "scientists" were severely limited by their culture, because their educational facilities saw any assumption of a consistent creation as "chaining Allah" and was viewed as apostasy.
Back to the point. Modern science is based on the SUPERNATURAL ASSUMPTION that the Creator made His creation in a logical manner that was discoverable by His special creation, mankind.
If I may elaborate -- evolution is a stochastic process.
Not a problem. The fossil record clearly indicates that plants and animals reproduce after their kind, just as the Bible describes.
is the idea that scientists would “look bad” if a science-based, fact-based theory somehow replaced
I didn’t say ‘scientists’ I said ‘evolutionists.’ Too many evolutionists are ideologues will indeed look like idiots if there is a paradigm shift because they have refused to acknowledge any of the accruing anomalies.
But of course Lazarus doesn't count, because the story of his resurrection is found in the eleventh chapter of the Gospel of St. John, and for some reason contemporaneous historical documentation from the Bible doesn't count.
Why has it not happened in thousands of years? Why has there been no recordings of such since physical recording devices have existed?
And, once Lazarus was resurrected, his consciousness was in a body. There is no Biblical statement on Lazarus' consciousness existing while he was "dead" (assuming he was: we don't know) -- nor after his eventual final demise.
The current argument is not about one physical theory that explains evolution versus another. It is about a suggestion that somehow an Intelligent Designer or Creator has been and is part of the process.
Science debates, frequently passionately, the meaning of the physical facts presented. It never suggests things that are not part of the material Universe as explanations.
All great points. Thanks for the reply!
The “godless” and “materialistic” scientists have made another wonderful discovery about God’s creation. What have the proponents of ignorance accomplished lately?
There are modern cases of people mistakenly thought to be dead. Medical technology still doesn’t solve the situation completely, as evidenced by the recent debate over Terri Schaivo.
Not too long ago, perfectly sensible people had alarm systems installed on their coffins for the possibility that they might be buried alive.
In the translation you linked, the person saying that “by this time he stinketh” is making an assumption, since the tomb has not yet been opened.
I’m not claiming my version is the true one, but you imply that the only options are a miracle vs a lie.
Unless these proteins are violating the laws of physics there is no reason to do so.
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