Are You Too Dumb to Understand Evolution?

CreationEvolutionHeadlines ^ | September 10, 2008

[GodGunsGuts]

Sept 10, 2008 — Astrobiologist David Deamer believes that life can spontaneously emerge without design, but he thinks lay people are too uneducated to understand how this is possible, so he gives them the watered-down version of Darwin’s natural selection instead, which he knows is inadequate to explain the complexity of life. That’s what he seemed to be telling reporter Susan Mazur in an interview for the Scoop (New Zealand). Is the lay public really too dense for the deeper knowledge of how evolution works?...

[mrjesse]

You are addression only one of at least three effects on the apparent position of the sun.

It just so happens that the one that I mentioned (due to the earth's transverse velocity) is the single biggest cause of apparent angular displacement of the sun's position.

Stellar Aberration, which is due to the earth's transverse velocity (which is about 67K mph) causes "20.something" arcseconds of apparent displacement. The surface speed at the equator due to the earth's rotation is about a thousand miles an hour - so that changes it by 1 part in 67. Then the Sun very slightly orbits its barycenter - but it doesn't move much and it doesn't move fast - so the light-time correction for the sun's motion is completely dwarfed by the 20 arcseconds due to Stellar Aberration. (I did all the math and posted it to FR a while back - let me know and I will find it and point you to it.)

So it is true that I only mentioned one of at least three causes of apparent angular displacement of the sun - but the number I gave you of 21 arcseconds is the sum of all of them rounded up to the nearest whole arcsecond. And for your information, there are 360 decrees in a circule, 60 arcminutes in a degree, and 60 arcseconds in an arcminute - so 1 degree is 3600 arcseconds. So LeGrande's 2.1 degrees converted to arcseconds is an enormous 7560 arcseconds - huge compared to the actual 21 arcseconds.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with science at all, but 7560 is waaaaaaay different then 21 and it is absurd to claim what LeGrande is claiming without providing proof.

The fact is that there are some people who will teach to others an out right incorrect idea and refuse to even answer questions that might show how wrong the idea is. And this is the cause of the current state of shambles of science in our classrooms.

-Jesse

[mrjesse]

Hmm, let me give you another example that may help. Let us be riding on two separate rockets in outer space. The rockets are accelerating at identical acceleration so that we are staying perpendicular to each other. Now lets say that you pull out a hose and aim a continuous stream of water directly at me. Will I ever get wet?

The fallacy of your argument is of course that in your example, the source of water is moving very fast - that's called light time correction. But in real life, the sun (which is the source of "water" (light) is not moving through space around the earth at 2.1 degrees per 8.3 minutes.

-Jesse

[mrjesse]

Please tell me the difference between what an observer on a stationary Earth with the Sun orbiting the Earth every 24 hours or if both the Earth and the Sun are stationary except that the Earth is rotating every 24 hours, sees?

One difference is that your trusty ring laser gyro will tell you instantly whether the earth is rotating or not and if so, at what rate.

For another, and more importantly, if the sun orbited the earth at the rate of one orbit per 24 hours, then the sun would suffer from 2.1 degrees of light-time correction. But if instead the earth was just turning at the rate of one turn per 24 hours then the suns apparent position will only be lagged less then an arcsecond due to Stellar Aberration as a result of the earth's surface speed at the equator of about a thousand miles an hour.

-Jesse

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear metmom!

Of a truth, the intelligent design hypothesis does not characterize the "intelligent cause" at all. It could be an entity (God, Gaia, Space Aliens, etc.) or a phenomenon. It doesn't stipulate whether the "intelligent cause" is "in" time or not, whether it once existed, exists now or will continue to exist.

Nor does it contain articles of faith. Nor does it replace evolution theory, i.e. it only addresses "certain features" not "all features."

It merely says that certain features of the universe and living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection.

Moreover, the "hypothesis" is more like a self-evident observation with reference to living things. After all, it is quite obvious that many creatures choose ("intelligent cause") their mates thus affecting the inherited traits of their offspring.

[Ha Ha Thats Very Logical]

According to evolution.berkeley.edu:

What that site says is that the origin of life is an interesting topic within the field of evolutionary biology. It doesn't say that the ToE itself addresses origins. In fact, if you start from that site's front page, it's very difficult to find your way to the page you posted--the only route I've found is through a "Take a Sidetrip" footnote to another page. In other words, the "soup to cells" page isn't part of Evolution 101--it's a tangent. Of course where life came from is going to be of interest to people studying how life changes--it doesn't mean they're the same thing.

[Ha Ha Thats Very Logical]

Scientists would gain more credibility if they admitted that they didn't know how to explain the apparent discrepancy...

They do say that, of course. From TalkOrigins, as pro-evolution a source as you could ask for: "Compared to science of evolution, the science of abiogenesis (origin of life) is still seriously underdeveloped in its explanatory power, despite the recent progress."

The same page links to an article in a biology journal that says: "Beginning with a single cell, Darwinian evolution provides a simple, robust, and powerful algorithm for deriving all the astonishing richness of life, from bacteria to brains. Natural selection and other evolutionary forces, acting on surplus populations of replicating cells and multicellular organisms, lead inevitably to evolution and adaptation. Give biologists a cell, and they'll give you the world. But beyond assuming the first cell must have somehow come into existence, how do biologists explain its emergence from the prebiotic world four billion years ago?

The short answer is that they can't, yet."

Happy now?

[Arthur Wildfire! March]

“This is, or should be a scientific discussion.”

Ha! This is a thread about whether all people who question evolutions is dumb. That’s the blasted headline. I mean, if the headline is ‘all non-scientists are dumb’ you would have a point.

[Arthur Wildfire! March]

Look at all the energy you are wasting trying to tell a stranger what he should do. Incredible. And look at all the energy you are wasting trying to back up this idiotic headline.

[Arthur Wildfire! March]

“The 90s? If you were born in the 80s that would be a reasonable statement but we have been on the verge of losing our freedom for much longer than that.”

You sure can draw conclusions from flimsy information. You are not reflecting well on evolutionists. The information age kept a lot of people blind. I didn't have time to paste newspapers all over my walls back in the 80s and mid-90s. If you recall, Al Gore did not invent much of an internet until the mid-nineties.

During the 80s and mid-90s, I was learning how to be a good manager. I was working odd and heavy hours taking care of my mother and supporting other family members. It taught me a lot about life too. You called me paranoid. I see ‘control freak’ written all over your posts. Life is not ‘Sim Cities’. You can't govern others with skimpy information about them.

[Arthur Wildfire! March]

“You should probably try to gain a little insight into the scientific discussion before you try to use an avowed evolutionist that says the ToE is an “elegant design” to try to discredit evolution.”

There you go again, trying to control a stranger, telling him that he should go make babies before he posts, and how he should post. I'm just mentioning people who are ‘too dumb to understand evolution’. You keep calling ‘Behe’ a ‘godless evolutionist’. That only adds to his credibility when he mentions that Darwin's theory was flawed. According to Behe, the odds are astronomically low that ‘random evolution’ explains everything.

I don't need to be a master mathematician or scientist to quote that Behe laid out in mathematical terms the miracle of several simultaneous mutations which just happen to form into a ‘mouse trap’. I'm not saying how those simultaneous mutations occurred, but I respect ‘dummies’ who claim that the 'random theory' requires faith. Whether they are correct or not, I don't know. But they don't sound ‘dumb’ to me.

[Arthur Wildfire! March]

“At least go out and work against Obama rather than wasting your time here.”

You don’t know my situation or my plans. Control, control, control through ignorance. Good grief. There’s a dynamic in this election that makes evolution a hotter topic than normal.

[Elsie]

Why did God feel he had to change his methods?

Why the assumption that anything was CHANGED?

God had known from the outset what the results would be.

His 'methods' were not all completely revealed to man.

They STILL aren't!

[Elsie]

Any attempt to return to science is resisted.

With the current Goreian thinking over just WHAT 'causes' Global Warming®, cell phone brain cancer, plastic in baby bottles causing all of your grandchildren to be born naked and cold fusion vs confusion - there's no wonder!!

[Elsie]

Create scads of evil people and then wipe them out.

Nope: create two people then let them make choices.

[Elsie]

I though that the ToE didn't deal with origins.

And yet it's the Origin thingy that keeps us awake on our beds at night...

[Elsie]

OK, I do not have the time to educate the ignorant on the continuance of law from the OT to the NT.

 

 

John Chapter 6

 23.  Then some boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the people had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks.
 24.  Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.
 25.  When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"
 26.  Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.
 27.  Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
 28.  Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
 29.  Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
 30.  So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?
 31.  Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "
 32.  Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.
 33.  For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
 34.  "Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."
 35.  Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.
 36.  But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.

[Elsie]

I'd say not many people would trade their lives today for that of a random person in Old Testament times.

Why not?

We're STILL gonna die of something!

[js1138]

http://books.google.com/books?id=xOmU5q1x8HsC&pg=PA62&lpg=PA62&dq=noah+ham&source=web&ots=kIo6RfjPqN&sig=Fq2MnYks6dXFptqR6uDdh13NhEE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA62,M1

[js1138]

Threads are like sewers. What you get out of them depends on what you put into them.

[bert]

Bible verses don’t count.