Posted on 04/15/2008 10:27:22 AM PDT by Snickering Hound
ELDORADO — Mothers separated from their children as part of a wide-ranging abuse investigation within a polygamist retreat accuse state officials of misleading them before taking their offspring into custody.
Authorities raided the sect's ranch more than a week ago in response to allegations that underage girls were forced to marry older men. Women and children from the secretive community were taken to a West Texas fort-turned-museum and a rodeo pavilion, but on Monday officials began separating women and some of their offspring without warning, members of the sect said.
While some women and children were taken from the shelters to the nearby San Angelo Coliseum, other women were allowed to return to the ranch — but only those who were childless or had children under the age of 5.
About three dozen of the women who returned to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ranch spoke out Monday, after 11 days in temporary shelters. They said in interviews that police surrounded them Monday and gave them a choice between returning home, or relocating to a women's shelter.
"It just feels like someone is trying to hurt us," said Paula, 38, who like other members of the sect declined to give her full name. "I do not understand how they can do this when they don't have a for sure knowledge that anyone has abused these children."
Marissa Gonzales, a spokeswoman for the Department of Family and Protective Services, said the move was a typical procedure taken by the agency.
"It is not the normal practice to allow parents to accompany the child when an abuse allegation is made," Gonzales said.
Brenda, a 37-year-old mother of two teenage boys, said the women were threatened with arrest if they resisted the court order. Previously, the women had been told they would stay with the children at least until Thursday, when a custody hearing is scheduled, she said.
A call to CPS for comment late Monday on the women's claims was not immediately returned.
CPS's closing of the shelters came a day after three mothers from the ranch petitioned Gov. Rick Perry to inspect the shelters to see firsthand how families were being treated. The women said the living conditions were cramped and that some of the children had become sick.
About 20 children were recovering from a mild case of chicken pox, said Dr. Sandra Guerra-Cantu with the state Health Department.
Perry spokesman Robert Black said the governor did not believe the children were being housed in poor conditions at the West Texas fort.
"Let's be honest here, this is not the Ritz," Black said. But he called the accommodations "clean and neat."
CPS said officials have been planning the move for a week but that the coliseum was unavailable earlier. About two dozen teenage boys were moved to a facility outside San Angelo with the judge's permission, CPS said. The location was not released.
The state is accusing the sect of physically and sexually abusing the youngsters and wants to strip their parents of custody and place the children in foster care or put them up for adoption. The sheer size of the case was an obstacle.
"Quite frankly, I'm not sure what we're going to do," state District Judge Barbara Walther said after a conference that included three to four dozen attorneys either representing or hoping to represent youngsters.
Brenda and others were critical of CPS, saying the agency misled them as to what was to happen Monday, weren't told why the children were removed from the compound and given inaccurate messages about opportunities to meet attorneys.
"We got to where we said, 'We cannot believe a word you say. We cannot trust you,'" she said.
Officials said the investigation began with a call from a young girl who has yet to be located by CPS. The women in the sect said they suspect she may be a bitter ex-member of the church.
The FLDS practice polygamy in arranged marriages, sometimes between underage girls and older men. The group has thousands of followers in two side-by-side towns in Arizona and Utah.
The church has repeatedly fought because of its lifestyle before. Men, women and children have been swept up in raids that took place in 1935, 1944 and 1953.
"It's been all through history, " said Brenda, the mother of two. "We were just here trying to live a peaceful, happy, sweet life. We don't understand why we can't do this freely."
Hey!!!
It lasted 47 years!!
That's eternal enough for SOME folks!
THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHICHAPTER 224 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
Or even HERE:
1 Timothy 3:2-3
2. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3. not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.1 Timothy 3:12
A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.Titus 1:6
An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTSSECTION 13251–57, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.
Thank you Colo....
I guess some people see what they want to see. It is unbelievable that there are those who say Polygamy isn’t in the Bible and even more surprising that they would say slavery isn’t condemned.
Basically ALL passages in the Bible where the practice of polygamy is mentioned also give a clear picture of the problems associated with it. There isn’t a single passage which talks about the blessings of polygamy. But there are many passages where polygamy is recounted and it always results in difficulty, jealousy and conflict. It is always accompanied by unhappiness.
If a reader of the Bible is at all sensitive to the meaning of stories, and the impact of storytelling and the teaching through stories even without stating things as “clear doctrine”, then one will realize that this is more than a subtle hint that polygamy is not recommended at all, and by exposing its reality it is actually warning strongly against this practice.
THank you.
I would guess that MONICA means something a bit different in this cloistered world.
"It is unbelievable that there are those who say Polygamy isn’t refuted in the Bible and even more surprising that they would say slavery isn’t condemned."
One thing they should have followed up was when one of the women (Shannon), who was not there when the raid occurred, said, "When I heard there was going to be a raid..." Did they know ahead of time there was going to be a raid? Maybe so and I just missed that in all of the news.
susie
That picture looks as though it could have been taken at the Desert Rose Inn in Bluff, Utah.
All 17 of them?
You might want to educate yourself about these cults before making a fool of yourself.
I won’t hold my breath though.
Come on, you can't believe that, not even Dane (or name any other poster who enjoys posting controversial stuff) thinks that way.
As to what I would do, I don't know. We clearly have a situation that calls for an investigation, but, it is beginning to look like those in charge were more concerned with the outcome than with the legality of how they were going about things.
Something that never occurred to me until someone pointed it out a few posts upthread, this may be a bunch of hysterical female posters who are calling me and others perverts for simply questioning the conventional wisdom here on FR.
Generally, women are more willing to trade away our freedoms for security than men are, and it may be that simple. As a man I agree with our Founding Fathers view that our freedoms far outweigh anything that happens to the cult.
I am also concerned. Consider what is more abusive, being 13 and married or being 5 and ripped from your mother by armed men who come in tanks to kidnap you and your brothers? What is it to be herded onto trucks, on your way to some unknown fate, while your helpless mother cries and pleads? It is a child's worst nightmare come true.
Here's a question. If a cult had a practice of enacting this nightmare scenario on their own children, would the cult be accused of child abuse? I think the answer is yes.
Where is the sense of proportion here? Why is no one called to answer for the damage done by the authorities in comparison to whatever good can be done?
There are larger questions of principle here, but what I keep coming back to is the brutality of the action of the authorities and the effect of that brutality on the children.
I could never wear that!
What is actually unbelievable is that you cling to the notion that the Bible condemns slavery yet produce no scripture to prove your assertion.
Google “Bible Condemns Slavery” and just peruse the many scholars both Christian and Jewish who since the mid 1700s have waxed on this and found zip to prove your assertion. Some of you may take liberty and claim “implied condemnation” but slavery is hardly ambiguous and one would think given that the Bible was written at time when slavery was universally practiced that if the writers of the Bible wanted to condemn it that they would have done so in certain terms.
You are being obtuse. Colofornian showed you why, where and how slavery was shown in the Bible to be a source of trouble, unhapiness, grief and pain. God is not the author of those things, but sin is. Can’t you put two and two together? Do you suggest that slavery is a “good” thing? We are slaves to only one Master - Christ.
Go your way. I certainly hope you don’t condone slavery or polygamy.
I’m done with you.
How about this commandment: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
How would you justify slavery in the face of that command?
To do less than to treat a slave as an equal would be a violation of that command. And if you desired or rejoiced to be free, then to hold a slave would be a sin.
It simply amazes me the people who would defend both polygamy and slavery on this forum.
There are current laws against polygamy, and against marrying children. How do you suggest these laws be enforced.
Here we have a situation where children are either refusing to, or can’t name their own parents....even their own mothers. As part of the investigation, this information is vital and necessary. The children are being questioned and since it cannot be determined who the child “belongs” to, they are being held...this is appropriate. Perhaps there are DNA test being done, as well as interrogation. Do you suggest there is something wrong with being interrogated about laws that are being broken?
If the mothers arent’ involved in law-breaking, why don’t they simply give the needed information to the authorities and be done with it.
My question from my first post on this topic has always been whether or not this raid was conducted in a Constitutional manner.
As more and more time passes it begins to look more and more like it was not.
The Fifth Amendment & civil & criminal codes includes private property protections, but would you, BE, be citing them left & right as your initial knee-jerk reaction if somebody trespassed upon your private property to rescue children drowning in your backyard pool? (I don't think so)
Stereotype all you want, BE, about male vs. female reactions. I could turn around & conduct the same kind of stereotyping...Example: Something that DOES occur to me is that while home schoolers are absolutely crucial to the present & future America, and that they do yeoman’s work, sometimes home schoolers are also overly sensitive in treating the home as sacred turf...("No Govt tred allowed")...
Hey, if a "home" on your street consisted of women being trafficked for sex, & if it was raided by the feds, I don't think we'd hear from you citing the need to protect the Constitution.
In your posting on this subject since April 12, it took quite a few posts from you before you condemned the victimization of these girls. Instead, it was right off the bat, a link to an article re how the "tip may have been a hoax" and then secondly it was there wasn't any sign of the original complaintant, and something was "fishy." And then it was "constitution" this and "constitution" that.
It is very interesting, isn't it? I've had posters flame me for posting against this child rape because "it's a conservative forum, we will lose our 'RIGHTS'". So this "conservatism" is the face of Free Republic to be shown to the world? We see FReepers condoning this atrocity because they don't like the way the children were rescued and demanding the children be sent back into that hell to be with "mothers" who facilitated the rape.
Well, "rights" include the "rights" of victims to not be subject to continued violation by rapists.
If I told somebody that a suspected rapist's great-grandfather(s) married underaged girls; that same-said grandfathers (most or all of them) did the same; and ditto for suspected rapist's father and brothers...I don't think the first question would be, "Gee, I wonder if the government has weighed in properly on the constitutionality of whether it's 'OK' to wed & bed 13, 14, and 15 yo girls?"
We are seeing mainstream LDS posters on here trying their best to defend polygamy as a "separate" thing from what the FLDS practices...and defending the fruit of polygamy in the process.
Eldorado, 2005-2008 is Deseret 1846-1913 & beyond. Once the media hit the rewind button, these mainstream LDS posters were transported to the Deseret establishment era, and quickly joined the Polygamy Media Militia.
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