Hummm?
Posted on 04/15/2008 10:27:22 AM PDT by Snickering Hound
ELDORADO — Mothers separated from their children as part of a wide-ranging abuse investigation within a polygamist retreat accuse state officials of misleading them before taking their offspring into custody.
Authorities raided the sect's ranch more than a week ago in response to allegations that underage girls were forced to marry older men. Women and children from the secretive community were taken to a West Texas fort-turned-museum and a rodeo pavilion, but on Monday officials began separating women and some of their offspring without warning, members of the sect said.
While some women and children were taken from the shelters to the nearby San Angelo Coliseum, other women were allowed to return to the ranch — but only those who were childless or had children under the age of 5.
About three dozen of the women who returned to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ranch spoke out Monday, after 11 days in temporary shelters. They said in interviews that police surrounded them Monday and gave them a choice between returning home, or relocating to a women's shelter.
"It just feels like someone is trying to hurt us," said Paula, 38, who like other members of the sect declined to give her full name. "I do not understand how they can do this when they don't have a for sure knowledge that anyone has abused these children."
Marissa Gonzales, a spokeswoman for the Department of Family and Protective Services, said the move was a typical procedure taken by the agency.
"It is not the normal practice to allow parents to accompany the child when an abuse allegation is made," Gonzales said.
Brenda, a 37-year-old mother of two teenage boys, said the women were threatened with arrest if they resisted the court order. Previously, the women had been told they would stay with the children at least until Thursday, when a custody hearing is scheduled, she said.
A call to CPS for comment late Monday on the women's claims was not immediately returned.
CPS's closing of the shelters came a day after three mothers from the ranch petitioned Gov. Rick Perry to inspect the shelters to see firsthand how families were being treated. The women said the living conditions were cramped and that some of the children had become sick.
About 20 children were recovering from a mild case of chicken pox, said Dr. Sandra Guerra-Cantu with the state Health Department.
Perry spokesman Robert Black said the governor did not believe the children were being housed in poor conditions at the West Texas fort.
"Let's be honest here, this is not the Ritz," Black said. But he called the accommodations "clean and neat."
CPS said officials have been planning the move for a week but that the coliseum was unavailable earlier. About two dozen teenage boys were moved to a facility outside San Angelo with the judge's permission, CPS said. The location was not released.
The state is accusing the sect of physically and sexually abusing the youngsters and wants to strip their parents of custody and place the children in foster care or put them up for adoption. The sheer size of the case was an obstacle.
"Quite frankly, I'm not sure what we're going to do," state District Judge Barbara Walther said after a conference that included three to four dozen attorneys either representing or hoping to represent youngsters.
Brenda and others were critical of CPS, saying the agency misled them as to what was to happen Monday, weren't told why the children were removed from the compound and given inaccurate messages about opportunities to meet attorneys.
"We got to where we said, 'We cannot believe a word you say. We cannot trust you,'" she said.
Officials said the investigation began with a call from a young girl who has yet to be located by CPS. The women in the sect said they suspect she may be a bitter ex-member of the church.
The FLDS practice polygamy in arranged marriages, sometimes between underage girls and older men. The group has thousands of followers in two side-by-side towns in Arizona and Utah.
The church has repeatedly fought because of its lifestyle before. Men, women and children have been swept up in raids that took place in 1935, 1944 and 1953.
"It's been all through history, " said Brenda, the mother of two. "We were just here trying to live a peaceful, happy, sweet life. We don't understand why we can't do this freely."
Thank you as well.
Got that right!
Thanks for being willing to look at it.
I’ve learned more than I ever thought existed about this group.
Not all the links I gave you are direct eyewitness or firsthand testimony, but there is a lot of documented history.
Honestly,
I don’t care if you think this is the Second Burning of David Koresh or the Saving the Babies of FLDS......
You can still feel compassion for these folks, and kick butt on those who make crass remarks or defend the lifestyle. Both sides can do that.
“If Joseph Smith acted immorally - then his whole “Prophet” halo disintegrates.”
By your reasoning, Abraham, Israel, and Moses were not prophets.
Hummm?
One wonders just how enduring an eternal divine covenant is, if it can be blithely set aside in response to a mere secular government’s command.
That’s gonna leave a mark.
If you were in charge of serving the warrant to that remote compound occupied by 500 cult members would you have brought your swat team and their armored car, or would you have shown up, hoped for the best and if things turned bad, let things take their course until help from a great distance away showed up, and hoping that some of your people survived crossing the hundreds of meters of open exposure.
I don’t know which city you live in, but an armored car is pretty standard.
If you conduct any operation with risk of shooting, it is best that you can supply a shield or a transport that is bullet proof.
Please show us one verse from the Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy (the era of Abraham, Israel/Jacob, and Moses) where it was GOD who directed anybody who sleep with or marry anybody besides their respective first wives.
The same cannot be said of Joseph Smith, who cooked up D&C 132 & customized it specifically for Emma. (Go ahead...read D&C 132 with a fresh eye & notice the specific references to Emma...so much for a universal Mormon god dealing with entire institution practice by beings from multiple countries on multiple planets...the Mormon "god" seemed primarily to be interested in D&C 132 as to whom Joey Smith would sleep with)
I agree. The State authorities should have investigated the single complaint instead of making a wholesale raid. In that case, as it turns out, there would be no complainant, as she has not been identified or found.
Some State officials are on a high horse and have violated several constitutional rights of these people.
The State goal is not to apprehend statutory child rape and molestation, but to destroy a religious community that has found a way to circumvent laws against polygamy, as well as having kept the Texas Dept. of Social Services ( Socialist Services) out of their community.
Thats dead wrong.
Oh, give me a break. While it's good that the major focus has been & remains on the underaged rape victims (again, basic legal lesson #1 for ...underage minor girls cannot consent to either sex with adults or marriage...and 15 & under is "underage" in Texas). Basic legal lesson #2, and folks should dust off their history books: All kinds of men did jail time in Utah in the 1880s for polygamy--whether they were marrying 14 & 15 yo or whether they were marrying women in their 30s or 40s. Polygamy was illegal in the 19th century, the 20th century, and the 21st century. Therefore, if Texas wants to follow up on that angle as the evidence is already present, there is just cause to start (soon) arresting a good chunk of the men present.
The fact is that it's because of Mormon laxity--with Mormons who serve as law enforcement folks in Utah--that this problem is multiplied across the borders into other states. They, along w/AZ authorities, would rather continue to pay up welfare fraud than risk a PR re-enactment of the Short Creek raid of '53.
Indeed.
Would a certain lady lawyer accept her own justification of polygamy if it came from her husband?
Maybe you should dust off your Bible.
The Bible condemned slave traders (1 Tim. 1:9-11) & kidnapping for slavery (Ex. 21:16); advised against returning escaped slaves (Dt 23:15-16); and advised slaves to gain freedom (Moses & Paul...Paul 1 Cor. 7:21-23).
Of course, there's some passages where some have thought God "condoned" slavery or was more neutral toward it...see Deut 15; Ex 21; 1 Pet. 2:18; Eph. 6;5-9: Titus 2:9-10; Col. 3:22-25; 1 Tim. 6:1)...but again, first of all, many of the "slaves" of the era were "bondservants"--meaning they were paying off an economic debt...would be released after a certain # of yrs. (no credit in those days)...secondly in many households, servants were treated as family members; For these slaves, anyway, that was no comparison to the slave-as-property mentality of American & Muslim slavery. (Certainly other slaves acquired by conquering warriors were nowhere near treated "like family").
My point is that in Biblical times, there were "degrees" of slavery, from temporary bond-servants to those treated like "plunder" captured after a victorious battle. From servants treated like family members to those abused. (Note, too that God didn't rush in to rescue the Israelites from bondage in Egypt...they were there over 400 years...how many generations is that? Did that mean God "condoned" it? No. But how would we know about spiritual debt & spiritual slavery unless He allowed real-life slavery. How would we know about spiritual warfare unless He allowed real warfare? "Allowance" and "condoning" are NOT the same attitudes.)
Polygamy....sort of accepted to some degree though much of the Bible is devoted in matrimony as between one man and one woman.
Hey, adultery wasn't even outlined til Exodus 20...so can't hold up Genesis folks as "family standards." Beyond that, I can only think of three characters (David, Gideon, & Caleb) who had concubines who were otherwise "positive" in character most of the way through their lives. {The others are hardly role models of other aspects of their lives, anyway).
If you think it was "tolerated" then I guess you'd have to hold up Absalom & Rueben--both who as adult sons slept with their fathers' concubines--as similar acts of "acceptance" (Absalom, son of David; Rueben, son of Jacob).
How is someone prosecuted for polygamy if any 1+ marriage(s) are performed only in a "church" ie not licensed via normal civil channels? How is that any different from individuals having multiple girlfriends and taking oaths of any "church" they wish to invent for themselves?
As to welfare fraud, how is that incurred? A majority of black & Hispanic childbirths are now out of wedlock - are these instances of welfare fraud?
The only thing authorities can get the FLDS on is statutory rape. Problem is, marriage of minors, subject to different state age limits (typically 16), is ok with parental approval. The FLDS has the perfect hook, because, guess what, the brainwashed mothers provide the necessary parental approval.
When this case is ultimately resolved (which may take 5-10 yrs), the FLDS (and any other sex cult [hint: Muzzies]) is going to have pretty clear guidelines: don't marry 1+ in a civil ceremony, welfare for "unwed" mothers is legitimate, and minor age limits somewhere between 16-18, with parental approval, will be established for the sex cultists to practice their dark arts.
Ditto
Is this the best you can come up with? I thought you being a lawyer and all it would be more impressive. I am a pilot and an engineer, but that means nothing really in the context of God - does it?
All that matters is Christ. Not Joseph Smith and his terrible sins.
Abraham, Israel, and Moses served God. Your false prophet served himself, and he did that pretty darn well. Heck, he got to screw a lot of girls! The number is between 27 and 60. Not sure, but we do know he put his penis into a LOT of women. Heck of a "Prophet" you got there.
Yeah, I know how the women are on this thread. A mite hysterical. They can label me whatever they want to.
Little girls get impregnated in the inner cities every day by older men who have unofficial harems and who practice polygamy without benefit of marriage. You don’t see cops raiding the ghetto apartments and Section 8 housing and taking these young girls off to re-education camps.
There sure is a double standard in this country.
I love the KleenEx next to her. I am sure that wasn't staged for the photo. The poor dear. Did she cry when her 14 year old daughters were given to some 50 year old pig of a man so she could gain favor in the "Celestial Kingdom?"
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