A Question for FR McCain Detractors

FR | 2-23-08 | Bob J

[Bob J]

Ever since Super Tuesday a super debate has been raging on FR concerning John McCain. I was never a McCain supporter, in fact I penned the post Super Tuesday post "Official FR Drinking Thread" so we could together drown our common disappointments into oblivion.

FReepers seem to be moving into three distinct groups. The first are those that have always supported McCain, a lot or partially. There are those that don't like McCain but are willing to support him because they believe they will get some of what they want or to defeat what the see as the more critical danger, Obama or Clinton. The there's the third group, those that viscerally dislike McCain and vow never to vote for him for any reason.

The actions and motivation for support from the first two groups seem obvious...they would rather see McCain in the White House than a dem. But for the life of me I cannot understand some of the actions of the third.

Allow me to explain.

I understand you dislike McCain and the reasons why. He is far too liberal on many issues, he has stabbed conservatives in the back several times and he is too cozy with the dems. These are all defensible reasons to not vote for him or to vote third party and you have every right to vote as you see fit and for whatever reasons you hold. What I don't understand is why some here are making such concerted efforts to dissuade others from voting for or supporting him.

As flawed as McCain is there is no way a logical case can be made that we would be better off under Obama or Hillary (O&H). Even on most issues where McCain is closer to the left than to us, O&H are much farther to the left than he is and would do much more damage than McCain. On the issues where he is not, the WOT, taxes, abortion, etc., the differences are stark and this does not even take into count extended issues like judicial appointments.

So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain? If you truly feel as you do than go sit out November or cast your vote for your 3rd party candidate. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why you push for a McCain and GOP loss.

It may be as simple as "misery loves company". It may be that you validate your own position by getting others to believe as you do. It may be that there are some dem propaganda plants on FR. I don't know but I sure would like to and I know others do as well.

[oldbrowser]

What I don't understand is why some here are making such concerted efforts to dissuade others from voting for or supporting him.

I am in the group that will vote for McCain because I believe that a Dem president along with a Dem house and senate could cause huge damage to the WOT and the supreme court.

I believe that there are many trolls on this website that emanate from DU and similar websites. I believe they were successful in getting many conservatives to not vote in 2006 in the false belief that they were "sending a message" to the GOP.

They were very successful in using a conservative website to discourage conservatives and it is now part of their play book and will continue.

[JasonC]

Hear hear. In fact, he was.

[mountainfolk]

I am a huge McCain detractor. Which does not mean that I will not vote straight Republican in Nov. I try to refrain from listing the reasons the man disgusts me because I do not like to give aid and comfort to the RATS. There is much validity to the anti McCain posts and about the only thing going for him is that he is at least on the Republican side on the WOT. McCain has at least one chance to push many of the undecideds in his direction; the choice of Vice President. However, given that the choice Republicans were given for a candidate undoubtedly originated with the power brokers withing the party, we can surmise that they have likely already decided who will be declared VP and all of our suggestions for an acceptable Republican will go nowhere. The main reason for voting straight Republican is that it is possible that if the Republican party runs good, strong candidates for the rest of the ticket, we can elect enough members in the senate and house to do major damage control, whichever of the three candidates makes it to the White House.

[nyconse]

Hey, I liked Dole. I did not believe he could beat Clinton, but he was a decent, likable guy. McCain on the other hand can not win, and he is not likable. I heard many say that McCain is not well liked in the Senate...after almost 30 years. You couldn’t say that about Bob Dole.

[The Citizen Soldier]

I care about the world because I live there, not in your mind.

Jason, please tell me how these bills have improved the world:

- Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 (aka: McCain-Feingold)
- The Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act (aka: McCain-Kennedy)
- McCain-Edwards-Kennedy Patients' Bill of Rights (aka: McCain-Edwards)
- The Lieberman-McCain Climate Stewardship Act (aka: McCain-Lieberman)

[JasonC]

I am far more interested in establishing the objective fact that the hissyfitters don't have a leg to stand on and cannot defend their position in rational argument.

If their response to that is to go join the communist party, well, they are free men and can damn themselves any way they please.

[no-to-illegals]

dearest dearest JasonC:
Back off...you will enjoy the view better. Much can be said sometimes with a picture or from saying nothing. (shaking head and actually walking away) Bye All.

[Salo]

Gee, imagine that: a McCain supporter who thinks controlling the border isn’t important.

BTW, on the Iraq war thing (and these are just the ones we know about):

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57289

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexico/20050329-1933-mexico-iraqisdetained.html

http://www.city-data.com/forum/immigration/117902-fbi-iraqi-s-being-smuggled-across.html

[alicewonders]

No, the real mystery is why you are having such a hissy-fit over a bunch of people who are “impotent” and insignificant (not to mention, going straight to he// according to you)?

Now go vote for McCain - I’m going to do some knitting.

[nyconse]

Calling people names does not constitute a logical argument.

[ex-snook]

"I disagree. Besides his unstable temper which is very dangerous, McCain would do to the Republican Party what Jimmy Carter did to the democrats. We can survive 4 years, but we can not survive the 12 years or more that McCain would put us back."

Well said. I would just disagree with the 4 years. Just 2 will do. Then vote in a conservative congress and in 2 more a conservative President.

Make the RINO extinct otherwise that's all we will get.

[Zack Attack]

No, it’s not misery loves company. It’s a love for the values we hold and not wanting to watch the party continually move left as we compromise more and more every election and settle for less and less. Eventually, conservatives have to take a stand or just fade away into minority status in the party.

Republicans didn’t even choose McCain. Our open primaries allowed independents to give him the edge he needed.

Anyway, one of my main sticking points with McCain is amnesty and illegals. Once we permanently add 12 million left-leaning voters to the rolls, the Republican party will have to shift their platform even further left just to try to get some of that voting block and the party counts on conservatives just coming along for the ride out of party loyalty and not wanting to see a Dem win.

[so_real]

My arms feel fine ... and you are “redirecting” instead of “addressing” the point. You cannot scare me/us into a vote for McCain based upon his potential access to SCOTUS appointees — and I showed you a single, simple, tangible, and dead-on accurate rationale for why this is so. Better to work the backlash angle in Congress and get real conservatives in those seats to thwart the appointments that a liberal POTUS might make, whether that be McCain, Clinton, or Obama, instead of hoping-against-hope that McCain if elected will have a change of heart and shift right.

[KevinB]

I enunciate my principles and I defend them.

Nothing wrong with that; it's what we do here at FR. But let's look at your first post in this thread which is what unleashed most of the hostility in this thread:

Logic has nothing to do with it, it is purely personal and psychological. They told themselves at some point that they were the cat's pajamas because they were more to the right than McCain - many as early as the 2000 primaries - and to support him now in any way would be to admit some of their vitriol back then was uncalled for.

They will no more admit this than a cold war red will admit Hiss was a soviet agent. The reason is the same - personal statements of their own are on the line. The farther out they went in slandering McCain, the less capable they are of swallowing any of it and voting for him anyway.

It is a fool's errand trying to convince any of them. Just point out that no one need follow them and they are free to take themselves off in a huff and be as silly as they like. Simple. Also, it is so last week by now, nobody cares what they think.

What does that have to do with principles? It is nothing but a personal attack against those who dare to disagree with you.

[so_real]

I’d like to join your 4th group. I think I’d feel right at home there :-)

[org.whodat]

“... some dem propaganda plants on FR....”

THIS GETS MY VOTE!!

The question is, do they exceed the gop and mccainacs that are paid staffers.

If what you say is for real, I have noticed that we have a lot of newbies pushing McCain for all they are worth!

[RavenATB]

Oh, I forgot...we’re supposed to be loyal to the RINO party no matter what they do.

Frankly, I’m a bit tired of being told that I’m a biggot by the likes of McCain simply because I oppose any form of illegal alien amnesty. I’m a bit tired of having my own party members trash the Constitution. I’m also a bit tired of having my religious faith targeted for attack by my “own” party members.

As a person whose wife worked for years both as a paid and volunteer campaign staff member on three different congressional campaigns and spend weeks volunteering full time to get “W” elected, and who hosted a number of Republican fundraisers in my home, I’ve grown a bit more than tired of the Republican Party. They’ve abandoned their base and what was their core beliefs. So, I see no dishonor in abandoning them.

[Caipirabob]

It’s ok. There are many prodigal sons on FRee Republic. When they return home in August or October the fatted calf will be killed and there will be rejoicing. Their absence will not be brought up as the joy of their return is celebraated. The family knows they have their reasons for the absence and thats all that need be brought up. The savor of victory in the offing will replace the bitter taste of primary defeat in the spring.

I love it. Cheers, sir!

[nyconse]

I lived in the south...they do not like McCain. I can see McCain losing any southern state except perhaps Virginia which is becoming moderate perhaps even leaning Dem because of Northern Virginia.

[JasonC]

Hardly, I am more conservative than anyone running this year, that is probably why I can see the matter clearly. There has been exactly one conservative candidate for president in a general election in my lifetime, RWR. All the rest have been squishes. McCain is a squish, so what? Calvin Coolidge was the last we had before RWR who wasn't. Squishes are normal in republican politics at the national level. True blues mostly survive only in house seats specifically carved out for them, and to a lesser extent as senators or governors of the most conservative western states.

The republican party is a great American institution which I am proud to associate with and to support, and along with the US military is the direct cause of most of the justice and decency existing in the modern world. And it got that way being a big tent for squishes, especially those hawkish on foreign policy and committed to defending capitalism in economics, who aren't particularly conservative in any other respects.

I'd like to see the country become more conservative than that, but then I'd also like to see universities teach real objective knowledge instead of Stalinist agitprop and self-involved twaddle, families stay together and raise their children instead of murdering them or splitting up, and lots of other things we don't have in the modern world. Wishes are not horses, realism is a virtue, and we do what we can.