Mormons Aren't Christians (Columnist also calls Luther a heretic)

Dallas Morning News ^ | 12/16/07 | Rod Dreher

[Mobile Vulgus]

Mormons aren't Christians ...

... and other thoughts on religion and politics sure to get your blood boiling

Herewith, my views on religion and the politics of the present moment, with something to offend just about everyone:

1. Mormons aren't Christians. I don't mean that as a criticism, only as a descriptive phrase. When Mormons claim Jesus Christ as their savior, there's no reason to doubt their sincerity and good will, or even to deny that they are in some way followers of Christ. Yet Mormonism rejects foundational doctrines of traditional Christian orthodoxy, such that it is impossible to reconcile with normative Christianity.

2. Anyway, the Latter-day Saints church teaches that all other Christian churches are apostate. A heretic is someone who rejects one or more doctrines of religion, but an apostate is someone who has rejected the religion entirely. How is it, exactly, that you can get mad when people you regard as apostates consider you to be ... apostate? How does that work?

3. Theologically, this is a big deal. But politically, so what? Mormons vote like Southern Baptists and come down on the same side of most issues of public morality like conservative Christians do. If you're a socially conservative lawmaker, wouldn't you rather have a Mormon in your legislative foxhole than a Kennedy-style cafeteria Catholic or progressive mainline Protestant? I'm no Romney fan, but is there really no meaningful political difference between Good-Mormon Mitt and Bad-Catholic Rudy, to say nothing of Liberal-Protestant Hillary?

4. There are plenty of good reasons for conservative Christians not to vote for Mr. Romney, but his religious beliefs are not among them. Do Christians want to be in the position of rejecting a candidate whose political views and moral values they agree with, solely because they don't like his religion?

[AppyPappy]

Does the LDS church believe that Jesus was A son of God or THE Son of God? That’s where the confusion lies. Granted, Mormons believe that God was Jesus’ “Earthly” Father but Jesus existed before being born.

I think I sprained my brain.

[broncobilly]

Joseph Smith doesn’t detract from Jesus in my church. Maybe he does in yours.

[Sir_Ed]

Well, regardless of how I structure my reply, or who I should have referred to, the fact still remains that Mormons DO believe that God was once a man, who evolved to become our God, and Mormos will likewise evolve from being men to being Gods who are worshipped and prayed to.

That belief means that Mormons and Christianity are the opposite from each other.

Ed

[x]

I guess it has a lot to do with what a heresy is.

If you accept the same books but disagree about the conclusions, can you argue that those who disagree aren't in a real sense Christians?

If you add a new book to the mix, can you still consider yourself a Christian if that book is sufficiently different from the others?

[Elsie]

You appear to be mentally unbalanced.

[maine-iac7]

As I understand it, Mormons believe in multiple gods, and that they can, in fact, become a god themselves some day. That would make them non-Christian.

Jesus quotes scripture as they were about to stone Him, accusing Him of blasphemy because He said He was the SON of GOD:

""Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? ..." and more -

AS you said "As I understand it,...

Therein lies the problem. Most people feel that their 'understanding' is Gospel and thereby go on to pass empirical judgment on others.

"Understanding" without wisdom seems akin to faith without works...

"Pro 4:7 Wisdom [is] the principal thing; [therefore] get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding."

Wisdom comes before understanding -

[DelphiUser]

And? Does the Bible say that any term not explicitly mentioned in Scripture is false? If that were true, one would have to abandon Mormonism and Luther's doctrine of "the Bible alone," among countless other beliefs, both true and false.

No, it does not, but since the nature of God is central, to knowing him: John 17: 3

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

You'd think he would mention it.

Also, the scripture: Gal. 1: 8-9

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Says that if the Gospel is changed from what was originally taught, it's bad. So how do we know what was originally taught?

1. Records
2. Prayer

Luckily, we have a way to find out if the records we are looking at are of God: 1 Jn. 4: 1

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

To me this is a Command to check out all religions, and pray about all, and see where I get an answer from God, and Follow his promptings, he even tells me how to know if I am being led astray. This is Good stuff, and I am Happy to say that after Putting Mormonism to the test, I know that It is true and that Jesus is my savior and came in the flesh, for the Spirit of God tells me so. Thus, I invite all to put Mormonism to "The Test" And thank you so much for asking.

Now, on to your link about the Trinity, Interesting, and yes I had seen this before, as for me all this eternal generation and eternal progression, and perpetual virginity stuff is just rubbish, none of it is in the Bible.

Sorry, but that's my opinion. In the Bible, John records jesus' own description of his oneness with the Father This is in Chapter seven of his book The Gospel of St John John 17:

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Now I hate the brevity which is forced upon us by this medium of communication, I have included a link tot he Chapter in questions, please click on it and read the whole chapter if you can, several times while meditating on the oneness of Jesus and God. Then pray about it.

My understanding is that the Disciples retained their personalities, and persons separate from that point on, and became "one" after the Day of pentacost and were of one heart might mind and strength.

Seeing me is like seeing my father, Seeing Jesus is like seeing his father for they look alike. Jesus and God are of one mind in that they think alike, so talking to one is like talking to the other. They are however separate persons, who make up a single Godhead.

Mormons believe that Jesus was also the first spirit created by God, and thus is the Firstborn among brother and sister spirits. Jesus was called by God the Father to be part of the Godhead, before Time or anything corporeal was created. There for Jesus is God from all eternity to all eternity, from the Beginning to the ending, the Alpha and Omega.

There are some here who are trying to say that since Jesus was created, or begotten by God he is lesser than God, this is not true.

Many relationships are confusing to people who do not understand them, God the Father is our Spiritual father, he is also Our God, he is also part of the Godhead which is also God, Jesus is Our Brother Spiritually, Our Father Physically as he and God the father Created Adam and gave him life. He is our savior in that he came here to earth, and personally Bore our sins and was crucified on the cross for us. He broke the bonds of Death and Hell by resurrecting his own BODY, thus absorbing the curse that came down from Adam. Because of Jesus, there is no stain of "original sin", for that is swallowed up in Christ and we are left free. Free to chose God and Salvation through Righteousness, or Satan and captivity through sin.

God has promised that those who act in a manner to be saved (having faith is an action to me) and are saved will inherit every thing that he hath. And if a son inherits his father's kingdom, is he not a king? the early Christians believed in the Diefication of man, now we are reviled for it, however, it too is biblical.

Consider if you can my position, I believe I am reading the Bible as it was meant to be read, and am being condemned by many who call my faith an abomination, many who claim to be enlightened are down right embarrassing to their peers when they call us names that if you put another title in the sentence (Black, Jew, Asian, Cripple, etc) they would be run out of town on a rail. but because they are talking about a person who professes to believe in Jesus, who is out of the mainstream so it is "OK". Imagine the shock they will be in for if I am right, and they are wrong.

Any logical and reasonable person will admit that there is a possibility that their perspective on reality might not be reality itself, so we could all be wrong. I ask all who will read this, what do you have to lose by reading a Free Book of Mormon, and PRaying about it? What do you have to lose by not checking it out?

To those who will now come out of the wood work (they always do) and tell you something "Vile" about Mormons, or that they read it for you, or some such, drivel.

It's simple, can you trust them? (no)
Can you trust me? (no)
Can you trust God? (Absolutely!)

I'd Go with God if I were you, can't decide if you want to ask for a book or not?

Ask God if it's a good idea.

If you are a parent, or have a parent (I HOPE that covers everybody) Wold you as a Good parent ever get mad when your child asks a honest heart felt question? God will never get mad at you for asking him for advice, and his advice is better than everyone els's put together.

IMHO, if there were more churches, there would be fewer psychiatrists.

This post is getting way to long. (You ask Good questions!)

Merry Christmas, and God bless.

[DelphiUser]

Would you like to make a political statement, or will you just take the award and get off the &#(##$@@!! stage already!

Sorry, Blushes, as a Mormon who is practicing what he preaches about voting for the best candidate (IMHO) and not worrying about religion, I would like to suggest a visit to Fred Thompson's website (and bring your check book when you go), watch a few clips of Fred on the Move, and when you like what you hear, make a donation!

Thanks, I'll be here all week!

[RobbyS]

You should have retyped more of the book, bcause Lewis’ argumrnt cannot be reduced to that quote.

[gondramB]

>>You obviously didn’t bother to read the article. Shame.<<

He leads with saying Mormons are not Christians because they don’t follow orthodoxy - that was enough that I don’t really want to listen to the rest. Attacking fellow Christians isn’t a way to get me interested. People who put up elaborate rules to claim others are not Christians are harmful, in my experience.

I’ve seen it done to Catholics. I’ve seen it done to protestants and its being done to Mormons. Its never good.

[DelphiUser]

I was going to just go past your post, until you said Elsie was a Girl, he (it is a he, trust me) uses the name Elsie because his initials are L.C.

I Could go back into my posting history and find where you told me, but how could I prove I didn't hack FR just to plant that there?

But WHY should you be 'trusted'?

I should not be, Neither should you (you might lie) We should all pray about it.

Post the data that proves that L.C. is male!

Um, how do I post the response to a prayer... I'll get back to you

(For anyone who does not get this </Humor>)

[Mad Dawg]

LOL!

All week? Better get me some bean dip and doritos!

[DelphiUser]

For ANYTHING to trump the existing bible we have, it HAS to pass THIS test:

<Snip>

Actually, that is an argument for a lack of Change, if we are saying that God said the Bible you have is corrupted already, then according to your scripture God is powerless to correct his word? God forbid.

If God is correcting something then by definition, what you have is wrong or God would not be changing it. The question is: is God making the change, or someone else? (anyone else is bad.)

For that you need to know if a Change is from God, and for that you need to ask him. Once you have an answer, you have to be sure it's from him. God (literally) thinks of everything, so we have instructions in the Bible for this.

You need this biblical test:

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

God told me it's true, and told me it's form him, and told me Jesus was the Christ. All in the same revelation, I'm sorry LC, I can't hear you while God is speaking to me.

If one believes the Bible is correct, then, by that Standard, Mormonism fails the test.

When you want someone to fail, give them the wrong test...

If, however, you are convinced that the Bible is either in error, been corrupted or mis-interpreted, then you are free to believe whatever you wish.

I choose to believe what God testifies to...

Be warned though, that this same Bible indicates that no matter how fervently you believe in Something; that does not make it True.

Similarly, no matter how fervently you believe a corrupted Bible, that will not make it correct.

The logical person will test both sides of this.

I have a section on this on my page here at FR titled Put our religion to "The Test" Go read it, if you feel inspired pray about it, if you feel inspired or even curious, order a Book of Mormon, then read it, good luck feel free to ask me questions as you read.

Good Bless and Merry Christmas to everyone.

[DelphiUser]

Talked to the shepherd today?

Gobs of us talk, but very few listen...

Amen to that!

[Pining_4_TX]

Yeah, wait until the general public hears this stuff. They’ll be all over Mitt for belonging to a mysoginistic organization. The MSM is holding this one until they see if Mitt gets the nomination, then they’ll drop this juicy bomb.

[delacoert]

The LDS church is not Christian because it is not Trinitarian. Of course, they say the same of us so the circle is not unbroken.

I agree.

Thank you for your post. :)

I readily admit that it is not for me to say if any LDS member is or isn't Christian. In a similar way, even though I accept the list of churches that ascribe to trinitarian doctrine as being orthodox, I cannot say if any member of those churches is or isn't Christian.

I am convinced that a Christian is one who has been accepted by the person of Jesus Christ and who has been, is, and will be saved. My understanding of who is a Christian is more in line with the biblical example of a saint.

I cannot know the eternal status of anyone else's soul. Sometimes even, the condition of my own soul is obscured from my own view, mostly because I've kept myself away from the mirror of my own heart. I have even lied to myself.

Like many others who profess Christianity I find reasonable assurance of salvation in the Bible, together with the fellowship of saints.

[Old Mountain man]

L.C., from you, I consider that a compliment!

ROFLOL!!!!

[hinckley buzzard]

Being a “Christian” has had a particular meaning for 2000 years. It does not mean whatever anyone wants it to mean.

Checked out The Episcopal Church lately?

[hinckley buzzard]

That means the government can't test - voters can and should.

There's at least one "constitutional scholar" on every thread about Mormons who trots that out.

Voters certainly "can." They can decide on any criterion they want to, and do. Whether they "should" is a far shakier contention, but the Constitution would be silent on it.

[TexConfederate1861]

hehe!

Only a RC would catch that! :)