Mormons Aren't Christians (Columnist also calls Luther a heretic)

Dallas Morning News ^ | 12/16/07 | Rod Dreher

[aMorePerfectUnion]

The large red letters were so persuasive! Thank you for
realizing that it wasn’t that people disagreed with you,
but that we just couldn’t read your small type.

The only problem is that I am color blind...

PS - Mormonism isn’t Christian. It’s a polytheistic
religion, an amalgamation with Hinduism.

[Frumanchu]

I cannot say whether you are a Christian from a covenantal standpoint...anyone who identifies themself with Christ is a Christian in that sense.

I cannot say whether you are a Christian from a soteriological standpoint...only God knows the heart and the only salvation any person can have assurance of is their own.

I CAN say whether you are a Christian from a theological standpoint...and I say with confidence that if you believe all of the theology of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints you are NOT a Christian.

Please understand that clearly. I am not pronouncing judgement upon your soul. I am pronouncing judgement upon your doctrine. How and to what extent your theology will affect your salvation is a matter between you and God.

[maine-iac7]

The Trinity is the central doctrine of Christianity. Mormons aren't Trinitarians, and for that reason cannot be considered true Christians.

So you believe their were NO Christians for the first several years after the Crucifixion?

You do, of course, know the the doctrine of the Trinity did not come about for decades after?

You do know that Jesus NO WHERE claims to be GOD the Father? (Trinitarians claim that when He said "they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee" as meaning He was ALSO God, not that He was saying He and God the Father were ONE in mind, in spirit. But the entire scripture reads: "And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

So if you use the trinitarian interpretation module, that would mean we are ALL God and ALL the Christ and ALL the Holy Ghost as, in Jesus' words: "that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;"

I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't believe in the Trinity. I AM saying that you may not have the last word on the subject and that I will take Jesus' word over mans.

A good link, for the brave and seekers of truth...although all anyone has to do is read Jesus's words ONLY to understand the truth.

http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity-09.htm

[BackInBlack]

“My point was to show how absurd some of the information is these threads.”

I understand, but my point was that you were comparing apples to oranges. For a denomination to have a founder is not the same as having a founder who also distracts attention from Jesus.

[DelphiUser]

"The birth of our Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of NATURAL ACTION. He partook of FLESH AND BLOOD--was begotten of his father, as we were of our fathers." ( Journal of Discourses, vol. 8, p. 115).

And if you keep reading, he talks about the Virgin birth.

Apparently, I must make it simple for you, we can Via Artificial insemination create a virgin birth today.

A man who fathers a child through artificial insemination is just as much the father of that Child as I am of mine which were fathered the "normal" way.

Jesus was Fathered by God thought the action of the Holy Ghost which over shadowed Mary (and we don't know the details, and I personally don't care) There was no Sex. Mormons have never used the word sex to describe what happened between the Holy Ghost and Mary, or God and Mary, etc, it is only those with a dirty mind who went there, I am sorry they have infected you with that image, stop spreading it, it's not true.

I know for a fact that you can not prove that from the Christian Scriptures. But I would welcome the opportunity to discuss it with you.

This should be fun.

God is the Father of All spirits.

Hebrews 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

The Devil/Satan/Lucifer is a spirit.

Luke 9: 42 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.

Jesus Christ is the son of God.

John 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

So if your father has another male child, is this child of your father not your Brother?

Mormons believe this because it is in the Bible, we do not believe Satan has any special relationship with Jesus that we do not also possess (having spirits we are also God's children.

John 20: 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Note that none of this makes any sense to someone who believes the trinity for their basic understanding of God is wrong and that is why Joseph smith was told the other Christian churches were teaching abominations.

Go ahead now, wrest the scriptures to find a way out of what they clearly say.

It may not be significant to you, but it is very significant to Christians.

By your private definition of Christians?

This is because it touches o­n the primary question of the New Testament, namely, Who is Jesus. Is he, as Mormons claim, a man who evolves into God (like all men can), or is he the unique, eternal God in the form of a man?

This is an important question, but people who believe on both sides are Christian, it's not your fault you were taught a dogma that conceals rather than reveals truth, and I am sure God will not hold it against you because of your ignorance, however, he will not reward you for being ignorant of him either.

What you find to be an "obscure doctrine" is central to all Christian belief.

Really? I thought Jesus Being the savior was central, oh, silly me. </sarc>

Have you considered the idea that it is shocking, not because it is misrepresented by others, but because, to anyone familiar with the Scriptures it is, in fact, shocking?

Yes, I have considered that, for all the time it deserved. Perceptions are not reality no matter how much you want yours to be.

This evidences a misunderstanding. The New Testament is full of example of people addressing and correcting error.

As I am addressing and Correcting you, however, I have never questioned your Faith, you have questioned mine, and that is unChristlike.

Paul got HOT about people who were trying to change or diminish the person or work of Jesus Christ.

Yep, he did, so? You are not an apostle of Jesus Christ, you are a believer on him. There is a difference, and apostle is called to the work by the laying on of hands by those in authority, just like happened in the Bible after Jesus left.

I have often thought the saying should be What Would Jesus Have Me Do, not What Would Jesus Do, for I am not him and what he would do and what I he would want me to do are different things. (prospective again)

Exposing erroneous beliefs is not unChristlike.

Nice double negative. Questioning another's belief in Jesus is unChristlike. If you want to correct belief, first accept what is correct, then talk about errors. For example, I was perfectly willing earlier in this post to point out scriptures that explain how Jesus and Lucifer are indeed brothers after a sense of the word. you asked. We Mormons often feel that your side has just told us we are not Christians so we have nothing to talk about. show me where Jesus said to do that.

While you are at it explain how a God who cannot lie deceives by appearing to Stephen as two people, and is continually talking about himself in the third person. Why would a God who is here to teach us about himself mislead like that?

Why doesn't the word Trinity appear in the Bible and the Word Godhead Does? (Godhead used to mean God the father, Christ and the Holy Ghost as separate entities) Arius was excommunicated for believing what we do about the Time of Nicea, Earlier, Hyppolytus taught it as church doctrine and refuted the theory that God and Christ were the same being. The evidence is clear for anyone who wants to look at the facts of history, that the "Christian" understanding of God has changed since the twelve apostles walked the earth.

DelphiUser, were you raised Mormon or did you convert from another set of beliefs?

The Short answer is yes. (Chuckle)

I was born within a year of my Mom and Dad Joining, so they were still learning about being a Mormon. I bear the names of the Two missionaries who baptized them. I also grew up in the Midwest with few or No Mormons in the towns we lived in. I had friends from many religions, and attended with them. I can count among my friends and relatives, Methodists, Calvinists, Pentecostals, Catholics, Atheists, RLDS, FLDS, and some Buddhists, nad more if I think about it, I have enjoyed religious discussions with all of them and consider all, but the atheist and Buddhists Christians, just like me. I even Graduated from a Buddhist Monastery while in Taiwan on my mission there. You could say that I have exposed myself to every religion I could, I enjoy studying religion, it fascinates me. The only thing I don't like about most religions is how people tend to try to force every body to share their faith because of their testimony. That's yours, it may not suit me any more than my glasses would suit you.

One of the things Chinese people would say that would frustrate most Missionaries to death was "All churches Teach people to do good, right?" (with the inference being that they are all therefore the same.) I could have a fun and educational discussion from there, but some of my my companions would want to run screaming from the room in frustration.

I'm curious, why did you ask the question, What bearing does it have on my beliefs now?

[maine-iac7]

they vote their conviction.

With, perhaps a dight of ignorance, arrogance and 'omnipotence' in the mix?

[DelphiUser]

We don’t say that you don’t believe in Christ. You just have Him wrong. Muslims believe in Christ.

Not as the Savior.

[BackInBlack]

“People confident in their beliefs don’t presume to defend the God of Abraham’s reputation. If the God of Abraham, if even Jesus of Nazareth is who He is reliably reported to have said He was, then He isn’t sweating out his standing in the polls, if you know what I mean.”

I don’t quite buy that argument. The Great Commission calls us to spread the word — or more specifically, the Word. For that reason, if there’s misinformation out there or if some people aren’t getting the message, we need to work in the other direction.

[DelphiUser]

LOL Seems like I've hit a nerve or something.

I'm sorry. let me get you a band aid.

[BackInBlack]

“You seem to have left out quite a bit.”

That is correct; I was giving an example in a post, not retyping a book.

[Ann Archy]

Yes, and the New Testament FULFILLS the Old Testament!!

[aruanan]

Mormons believe that Jesus was the divine son of God who died and was resurrected, and therefore they are Christians, regardless of any other doctrinal differences.

But they don't believe he was the only divine son of God, the one who has existed with the Father throughout all eternity.

[DelphiUser]

“Also, Christianity, true Christianity has been around for 2000 years, but Mormonism has only been around 200 years.....so why should anyone think it’s the TRUE religion?”

You make a very good point. Simple, yet powerful.

And Ignorant, even the Catholic church has not been called Catholic for 2,000 years, LOL then when did they add Roman...

If age is all you are interested in then We believe Adam to have been Baptized by God as the First Mormon, look it up.lds.org

[BackInBlack]

If Catholics don’t need their relationship with God mediated by another institution, why the need for a pope? Or confession to a priest? How would a priest be able to tell you exactly what to do in order to be right with God? Why would you actually need to go to a church building to receive the body and blood of Christ — wafers and wine blessed by an agent of the church? Seems like an awful lot of reliance on a human institution to mediate the spiritual relationship.

If I am ignorant, please set me straight. I’m happy to learn, but am unmoved by simple assertions, without evidence, that I’m ignorant.

[Mad Dawg]

Actually I would say it depends on the definition of the word Christian. As far as I know big letters and a red color do not constitute an authoritative definition. I think arguing over whether or not this or that group is Christian without some agreement about the definition of Christian is futile. But that's just me, whatever the color and the size of the letters are.

[DelphiUser]

I thought that if you weren’t speaking negatively about someone that it was OK to not ping them. In the future I will ping them no matter. Thanks.

In my experience, it's better just to always Ping, now if I can just remember to do it before the post button gets clicked...

[BackInBlack]

“Seems like sound reasoning to me.”

The reasoning ignores two utterly simple points that liberals would quickly make. First is the possibility that the historical Jesus didn’t say all the things that were attributed to him. Second is that brilliant insights are made by deeply flawed, self-important men all the time.

I of course believe Jesus is the Son of God. What I object to is the laughable reasoning. If you want to make an evidentiary argument based on historical analysis and so on, that’s one thing. But you could drive a truck through the holes in Lewis’s logic.

[Mad Dawg]

If God saves you, why the "need" for a Bible, or a computer or dinner?

For the rest, start here:

[BackInBlack]

I guess my memory isn’t too bad!

[MEGoody]

I'm sorry. let me get you a band aid.

Show me where it hurts, and I'll put it on for you. ;)