Posted on 11/16/2007 7:02:04 AM PST by Grzegorz 246
Bucharest and Brussels, 16 Nov. (AKI) - Romania, one two countries accused by Europe's top human rights watchdog of hosting secret CIA jails used to interrogate Islamist terrorism suspects, says it has written to the European Union executive denying the charges.
The letter to the European Commission is a response to a request from EU justice and security commissioner Franco Frattini asking Romania and Poland - the other country implicated by the Council of Europe - for an explanation.
A Romanian spokeswoman in Brussels, Doris Mircea, said that a committee of inquiry set up by the government concluded that the allegations that Romania hosted such secret prisons between 2003 and 2005 were unfounded.
"No person was kept illegally as a prisoner within Romanian jails and no illegal transfer of detainees passed through Romanian jails and illegal transfer of detainees passed through Romanian territory," Mircea said.
Poland has not replied to Frattini. In June, however, former Polish president, Aleksander Kwasniewski, denied there had been any kind of secret CIA prisons in Poland or that there had been any discussion of the matter.
The Council of Europe report, led by Swiss senator Dick Marty, implicated 14 countries - including Italy - of collusion in a 'global spider's web' involving detentions and illegal flight transfers of terrorism suspects, known as 'extraordinary renditions'.
The Council of Europe report in June said there was enough evidence to support suspicions that CIA secret prisons were established in Poland and Romania.
Media allegations on CIA jails broke last November, when the Washington Post newspaper said the intelligence agency had sent more than 100 people to secret jails known as "black sites" that were set up following the 11 September 2001 attacks on the United States.
A separate enquiry by the European Parliament into 'extraordinary rendition' in January concluded that in the four years following al-Qaeda's 11 September 2001 attacks on the US, the CIA carried out 1,245 covert flights via Europe, the report said.
Governments had turned a 'blind eye' to secret US flights carrying terrorism suspects across Europe, the report found. It highlighted insufficient parliamentary oversight of European security services.
Notice the Romanian diplomat used the word “illegal”, inferring that, according to Geneva Convention, any of these supposed “prisoners” are not “illegally” detained........
Most interesting.
Nope. The European Union is no enemy of the United States. We Europeans do not harbour or protect known terrorists. Nevertheless it is pretty irrelevant what President Bush said about the old continent since we Europeans tend to make our very own decisions. Romania entered our club, the European Union, which is decisive for their economic development, since their trade with the US i.e. is completely irrelevant for them. The Romanians are completely dependent on western Europe and its cooperation. They want to be fully recognized Europeans with European values and This is the reason why they signed among other things the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR). That convention is not compatible to the current US practice with terrorists. Therefore we have to check whether there were deliberate infringements or not. If that should be the case Romania will have to pay a high price for sure, since Europe will and can not tolerate such behavior in its own backyard.
It is okay what you Americans do in your sphere of influence. Nobody in Europe would ever interfere in American jurisprudence. On the other hand we do not tolerate your dungeons in our sphere of influence.* You would not do that either. The Romanians (or in some case other eastern Europeans) have to decide what is more important to them - European values or subordination under American leadership.
* This is the reason why some CIA-agents (there was some causeless highjacking of European citizens) better not step on European soil again. They could end up in a Italian or German prison for 10 to 15 years.
Hogwash. the french have done exactly that for years.
....decide what is more important to them - European values or subordination under American leadership.
God all you europeans are a bunch of arrogant pricks. When the romanians go your way it's "values" when they go our way it's "subordination". Y'all say crap like that and then wonder why you get such a cold reception here. Idiot.
The thing is, that American hegemony on the old continent is history since the end of the cold war. From the 350.000 GIs in Germany there are maybe between 60.000 and 25.000 left with a shrinking development. The city-police of Frankfurt has probably more operative man-power than the US in Europe. The current US influence in western Europe is that low that some governments like Germany or France do not even support the recent US wars by lip-service anymore. During the cold war we Germans were bound as a occupied country to support you at least with billions and bazillions of Dollars. Today the US do not even get some benevolent words on their way if we Europeans are not convinced of your actions.
Some things might have changed but we are for sure no enemies of you because of that. We try to help in your WOT where we can but we do it by our rules. There are many common interests and nations like the UK, Germany, France, Italy, Denmark, Spain etc. etc. etc. even support your wars in Afghanistan or in Iraq with soldiers, men and material. Beside of this we still share values, religion and offspring.
That does not change the fact that it is up to us to deal with terrorists on our own territory and not up to the US or anyone else. Therefore people who highjack our citizens on our territory are criminals and therefore bound to go to jail if we get them. No matter if they have a contract of your government or not.
A example: The El-Masri hijack.
In some cases the identities of the involved CIA agents are known and they are already wanted over a international warrant of arrest by EURO- and INTERPOL. Therefore they are well advised never ever put again a foot on European soil. In Europe we strictly seperate between judiciary (the judges) and executive (the government). Nobody (not even Merkel, Sarko or Prodi) will be able to help your agents if they ever should be caught.
That has to be one of the most ludicrous paragraphs ever posted here! "Support" us? Hahahahaha! We spent TRILLIONS of dollars protecting and supporting YOU, you INGRATE!! Does "The Marshall Plan" ring a bell? "Our WoT"? Are you really that delusional and/or misguided?! Do you actually think the jihadists will leave you alone if you don't assist us? You have more Islamists there than we do! WAKE UP!! This is a war between the West and Islam. Didn't the Spanish train bombing or London teach you people anything?! Iran's nuclear weapons are more threatening to you than to us. I served in the so-called "cold war" and the Germans and Koreans I met were appreciative of our efforts and the protection we afforded them. Now that the communist threat has subsided, you think that Uncle Sam can be shat on with no undue consequences. Perhaps in the short run you're right, but the surge of support for Congressman Ron Paul of Texas tells me that there is a pent-up frustration with our being the "world's policeman" that may come back to bite you all on the ass one day, when you need us again!
I don’t think there will be a new war between the US and European nations. The muslim menace will become all too clear— within Europe— the terrorists living down the block from you will go “active” and you may lose all interest in the US being “nice” to the ones in the Middle East.
On the other hand you would do well to visit Breitscheidplatz in Berlin-Charlottenburg for an example of what the US was able to do with piston-engine aircraft, TNT and white phosphorus without setting a single foot on the Continent. There are too few of you remaining with the living memory of those days.
And, see tagline below...
Examples?
God all you europeans are a bunch of arrogant pricks.
Are we? The thing is that you can not join a club that implies a certain behavior without doing so. Other members will feel provoked for understandable reasons. The ratification of the
European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR)
is a basic requirement for a EU membership. Therefore the Romanians signed it. Now they violated this treaty since those "secret prisons" are simply contradicting anything that is standing there. To my knowlege you Americans do not want to have those prisons on your own soil either since your own laws are incompatible with your own practice (that is happening in Romania or elsewhere now). Therefore you have to look for countries that tolerate this kind of dungeons or your interrogation practice due to their (muslim) law system or their lack of a human rights tradition. The vast majority of the European Union does not want such to happen in Europe and therefore they will punish the Romanian government for it. The price they have to pay will be very high (and the EU has the means to make them pay) although this is going to take place behind closed doors.
That would be news to Boeing.......
Of course not. This is rhetoric BS.
On the other hand you would do well to visit Breitscheidplatz in Berlin-Charlottenburg for an example of what the US was able to do with piston-engine aircraft, TNT and white phosphorus without setting a single foot on the Continent. There are too few of you remaining with the living memory of those days.
I am well aware about the American abilities. My granddad is responsible for a whole graveyard of young Americans. We was one of the very few well experienced German pilots (he joined the German Luftwaffe as a pilot in 1934 and was used as a flight instructor until early 1944) who were left in 1944/45 that wiped American bombers out of the German skies with their Focke-Wulf Fw 190-D9s. He left many crying American mothers behind whose hearts were broken. Believe it or not, my Granddad (91 years now) and my whole family are very sorry for this although it happened in real defense. My own family survived the Dresden bombing i.e..
Nevertheless American military abilities are not that impressive anymore today for a observer from abroad. You invaded Iraq. So what? A broken country with a crazy dictator. Nobody had reason to any resistance. The sane Iraqis would even have surrendered if the Swiss guard of the Vatican would have marched in. And... ...as long as you are not able to catch this camel driver Bin Laden you folks will not be able to tie up to the good reputation of your grandfathers anyway.
Oh, he's long dead - it just suits the propaganda arms of both sides to pretend he isn't...
I do not say that the US were no friendly occupying force and I am indeed quite thankful for the protection and help you provided until 1990. Nevertheless this was a mutual business. We Germans and Poles (in this case) as the looser of WWII had to live with the danger to be grilled by Soviet short- and intermediate range missiles with nuclear warheads while the US and the Russians would have kept themselves out of the fighting zone. Besides of this America needed someone to trade with and to have by its side as an ally. NATO and the transatlantic friendship was never a one-way street. Every side had its benefits.
You have more Islamists there than we do! WAKE UP!! This is a war between the West and Islam. Didn't the Spanish train bombing or London teach you people anything?!
This is correct. We have to do something against the terrorists that are present in Europe. Nevertheless this has nothing to do with providing extralegal prisons outside of our own jurisprudence on our own soil that do not correspond to our requirements on human rights and it has nothing to do with tolerating a befriended nation in highjacking our citizens without our knowlege. Such might be possible with terrorist states but not with western Europe. Therefore the EU will punish Romania. The US are well advised not to repeat this anymore since the damage done is much bigger than any benefit from it.
If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem. Get your act together so we don't have to do all of your dirty work for you.
In the process of saving our neck we may save yours. No need to thank us, we know you don't really mean it.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/france/story/0,11882,1251123,00.html
Charles Krauthammer: If U.S. is a pariah, the world hasn't noticed
Do you really believe we are not as strong as we were sixty years ago?
As for Bin Laden, he is a symptom of the greater disease.
Beware lest while watching the wolf in your neighbor's yard, you fail to notice that the faithful hound who has groveled at your feet for twenty years*
-- has got rabies and is stalking your child.
*Muslim guest-worker
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