Posted on 07/25/2007 12:57:22 PM PDT by mngran
Pope Benedict XVI said the debate raging in some countries — particularly the United States and his native Germany — between creationism and evolution was an “absurdity,” saying that evolution can coexist with faith.
The pontiff, speaking as he was concluding his holiday in northern Italy, also said that while there is much scientific proof to support evolution, the theory could not exclude a role by God.
“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”
He said evolution did not answer all the questions: “Above all it does not answer the great philosophical question, ‘Where does everything come from?’”
Benedict also said the human race must listen to “the voice of the Earth” or risk destroying its very existence.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
Take, for example, a mutation that improves eyesight accuracy. For a hunter, or even for prey, that would be so helpful that the loss of whatever previous mechanism was there wouldn't matter, even if it had to be carried around for a while.
I'm not sure what you mean about the single cell that registers light. It seems fairly simple to me. There would be much more complexity in the neural connections that enable the organism to make use of that sensitivity. Even plants have light-sensitive cells.
You will find this prophecy alluded to in Jeremiah 18:1–4 and evidently quoted from Zechariah 11:12–13. It is credited to Jeremiah simply because in Jesus’ day Jeremiah was the first of the books of the prophets, and that section was identified by the name of the first book.
Sorry to blow your bubble, but you only got half of it right. Yes, Jesus called Simon petros (little rock, pebble) but then He added that upon this petra (bedrock) He would build His church. Who is this bedrock, the Rock of Ages, the Solid Rock? Jesus Himself, so the church was not founded on Peter but on Jesus.
I had to laugh since I did open a miniature “religious war” or at least debate. You mentioned or quoted Rashi earlier in one of your posts; it may interest you to know that Rashi (continuing a tradition over 1,000 years old) believed that Isaiah 53 spoke of the messiah.
Regarding supercession, it depends on what is being superceded. God will not break his promises. They were fulfilled in Christ. “It is done.” One of my pastors is Jewish, and quite a few of our congregation so your categorizing the Jewish people as not Christian by definition needs some thought. To state the obvious, Jesus, and each of his disciples were Jewish.
Christ is the Word.
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
. . .
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Regarding Jeremiah 31, it does clearly speak of the Holy Spirit and writing the word of God on the hearts of men. Not rabbinical commentary, but something deeper, the word of God itself. And obviously we do all still die for our sin. We are, however, saved with and through faith in Christ.
Superceded is perhaps the wrong word. Fulfilled. Made whole.
I think one of the briefest descriptions of the law and it’s place in Christian life is in Galatians 3, although if you are interested Romans 6, 7, 8 also discuss it, and 2 Corinthians 3.
Galatians 3
The Law and the Promise
15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Sons of God
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Regarding Matthew 5 (the “jot and tittle”), Christ goes on:
The Fulfillment of the Law
17”Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Murder
21”You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother[b]will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,[c]’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23”Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.
25”Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.[d]
Adultery
27”You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Divorce
31”It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’[f] 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
Oaths
33”Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.’ 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
An Eye for an Eye
38”You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43”You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
So Christ both expands the law and limits it. This is echoed in the story of Christ and the rich young man in Matthew 19:
17 If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.”
18”Which ones?” the man inquired.
Jesus replied, “ ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20”All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
21Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Sorry to spam scripture. Hope you made it through.
I hope He managed to meet your expectations.
Correction is not condemnation.
You certainly give the impression that it is, but until you're perfect, just who the hell do you think you are correcting anyone's religious beliefs? I'm going on gut instinct here, but if you can't communicate directly with each of us, and therefore have to resort to the internet, you're far from devine.
Spend your time correcting yourself.
But some close their eyes to truth/light and choose to wallow in deceit/darkness.
Personal experience talking here?
The link you posted is an exposition of the Recreation Doctrine. This interpretation is a recently developed accomodation to secular evolution. When you look at the details of it though, it doesn’t hang together logically.
Worse, the recreation doctine tends to make the scriptures self contradictory. All in all, I find that a very literalist interpretation makes more sense. There are many better ways to harmonize observed scientific data with the Biblical chronology than shoehorning billions of years between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2
Sorry to deflate yours, but my bubble is still intact. The United Stated Conference of Catholic Bishops has reaffirmed that Peter was the Rock upon which Christ built his church. They explain it as follows:
Matther 16:18
You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church: the Aramaic word kepa - meaning rock and transliterated into Greek as Kephas is the name by which Peter is called in the Pauline letters (1 Cor 1:12; 3:22; 9:5; 15:4; Gal 1:18; 2:9, 11, 14) except in Gal 2:7-8 ("Peter"). It is translated as Petros ("Peter") in John 1:42. The presumed original Aramaic of Jesus' statement would have been, in English, "You are the Rock (Kepa) and upon this rock (kepa) I will build my church." The Greek text probably means the same, for the difference in gender between the masculine noun petros, the disciple's new name, and the feminine noun petra (rock) may be due simply to the unsuitability of using a feminine noun as the proper name of a male. Although the two words were generally used with slightly different nuances, they were also used interchangeably with the same meaning, "rock." Church: this word (Greek ekklesia) occurs in the gospels only here and in Matthew 18:17 (twice). There are several possibilities for an Aramaic original. Jesus' church means the community that he will gather and that, like a building, will have Peter as its solid foundation. That function of Peter consists in his being witness to Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of the living God. The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it: the netherworld (Greek Hades, the abode of the dead) is conceived of as a walled city whose gates will not close in upon the church of Jesus, i.e., it will not be overcome by the power of death.
Jesus further affirms Peter as the Rock upon which His church was founded in Matthew 16:19 by bestowing on him celestial powers.
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
[19] The keys to the kingdom of heaven: the image of the keys is probably drawn from Isaiah 22:15-25 where Eliakim, who succeeds Shebnah as master of the palace, is given "the key of the house of David," which he authoritatively "opens" and "shuts" (Isaiah 22:22). Whatever you bind . . . loosed in heaven: there are many instances in rabbinic literature of the binding-loosing imagery. Of the several meanings given there to the metaphor, two are of special importance here: the giving of authoritative teaching, and the lifting or imposing of the ban of excommunication. It is disputed whether the image of the keys and that of binding and loosing are different metaphors meaning the same thing. In any case, the promise of the keys is given to Peter alone. In Matthew 18:18 all the disciples are given the power of binding and loosing, but the context of that verse suggests that there the power of excommunication alone is intended. That the keys are those to the kingdom of heaven and that Peter's exercise of authority in the church on earth will be confirmed in heaven show an intimate connection between, but not an identification of, the church and the kingdom of heaven.
Either the whole Bible is to be taken literally or none of it is.God bless you!
--Resolute ConservativeHow can one take Matthew 27:9-10 literally when the text cites a passage in Jeremiah that isn't there? Check it out for yourself.
If you can find the passage Matthew attributes to Jeremiah somewhere in Jeremiah I will consider taking the whole Bible literally as you do, if not, you should consider the possibility that your approach to scripture needs to be adjusted.
--ofwaihhbtnYou will find this prophecy alluded to in Jeremiah 18:1–4 and evidently quoted from Zechariah 11:12–13. It is credited to Jeremiah simply because in Jesus’ day Jeremiah was the first of the books of the prophets, and that section was identified by the name of the first book.
--Former Fetus
St. Jerome points out this apparent discrepancy in scripture in a letter to Pammachius in A.D. 395. I say "apparent" discrepancy because there can be no real error in scripture as it has the Holy Spirit as its author. That Matthew would attribute a passage to Jeremiah that is not in Jeremiah and sort of resembles (but does not match) a passage from Zechariah, and is only vaguely alluded to in Jeremiah, is exactly what the Holy Spirit wanted for reasons of His own. It is not an error.
I just pointed it out to Resolute Conservative in the hope that he would reconsider his literalistic approach to scripture. Don't get me wrong. I believe in the Old and New Testament miracles and find modern, scientific, scripture scholarship quite irritating and faithless. It is just that the Church Fathers did not take the entire Bible literally and so neither should we. I will get into why this is so if you want to continue this discussion.
Thanks for your comment,
ofwaihhbtn
And science doesn't need your "correction," which was the basis of my objection to your ravings in the first place.
I also pray for the beauty and majesty of the Orthodox and Catholic faiths to be reunited with the vigor and enthusiasm of our Protestant faith. Lord Jesus, let it be soon!
I also pray for the beauty and majesty of the Orthodox and Catholic faiths to be reunited with the vigor and enthusiasm of our Protestant faith. Lord Jesus, let it be soon!
___________________________________________________________
John 17: 20”My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
Cool post, thanks for bringing some rationality to this seemingly endless “crevo” debate here on FR. It’s just too dang early for me to read and comprehend this right now but I need to read this later. hehe
I think it was you who said earlier that you read the full text of the Holy Father’s comments, not MSNBC’s version? If so, do you have a link for that? I’ll look later for myself if you don’t respond; I’m just barely conscious right now, and I also might forget later.
Thanks and God bless,
Related to the law, Christian practice and modern Jewish practice:
Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man’s wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”
11”No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”
________________________________________________________
The question regarding modern Rabbinic followers is obvious. On what basis do they justify ignoring the law? Christians are told in scripture that purpose of the Old Testament and the law was twofold: 1) To point to Christ; 2) To demonstrate that no man could perfectly follow the law; that all were in need of the Messiah.
We are also told directly that we are free from the law:
Freedom in Christ
1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
“Since the number of people who accept evolution or literal genesis creation are irrelevant, then I will ignore them and will feel free to accept the obvious science of evolution without distraction.”
Good luck.
“Yes. You think that reproduction is impossible, plants don’t grow, and infants simply deteriorate.”
Sarcasm aside, I don’t think you have a firm understanding of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
That, and the constant teaching of Christ's Church, which the Bible calls, "the pillar and foundation of truth."
LOL Study and get the lesson in it for you are way off base.
Believe it or not, I have studied it, and have reached a different conclusion from you. Since we're both looking at the same Bible verses, where do we go from here? Is your interpretation of these passages infallible? Is mine? Or should we take our dispute "to the Church," as Jesus instructed us?
Besides which - you are saying Jesus' death wasn't 'enough' - something else needs to be done to cover your sins. Totally against God's Word. In essence you are saying - Jesus, I'm sorry but you see - you didn't do it all at the Cross, "I" need to do something else.
I didn't know that I was saying that. I certainly don't mean that. And that's not what Christ's Church teaches.
Christ's sacrificial death on the Cross makes our salvation possible, by "opening the gates of heaven," but Jesus' death on the cross does not guarantee our salvation, nor does it remove all just temporal punishments due to our sins.
The following analogy may be helpful. Suppose that I throw a baseball through my neighbor's window accidentally, and that he forgives me. Have I done all that I need to do? My guilt has been removed, but I am still obligated to make reparations to my neighbor, as best I can. And I can do that by offering to pay for the broken window. Christ's death on the Cross, and our sorrow for our sins, removes our guilt. Nevertheless, we owe God "reparations," to the best of our abilities. God will accept our humble efforts, just as we accept our children's humble efforts to make reparations for their sins against us.
The teaching of Christ's Church regarding Purgatory is that it is a state of purgation prior to heaven. Everyone in purgatory is bound for heaven. Purgatory cleanses us of all attachment to sin.
Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.Here are some more Bible passages that support the doctrine of Purgatory.Purgatory, Catholic Encyclopedia.
What's your point? That a Church with sinful clergy cannot be Christ's Church? Didn't Jesus tell us that the weeds would grow up with the wheat?
Oddly enough, I view your understanding as somewhat deficient as well.
Perhaps you'd care to explain the relationship between the 2d law and nonequilibrium coherent structures, such as convection cells, autocatalytic chemical reactions, and replicating biological systems.
After all, according to your proclamations about the 2d law, life would never exhibit any of its (otherwise self-evident) movement away from disorder and equilibrium into highly organized structures some distance from equilibrium.
In short, why doesn't the 2d law prevent acorns from becoming oak trees?
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