A Brief History of Mormons and Politics - From Joseph Smith to Mitt Romney

By the time Abraham Lincoln won the presidential election in 1860, there had already been several attempts on his life. His anti-slavery stance caused the nation to split within days of his victory. Because his life was in danger, he was hidden in the luggage rack of the train that took him into Washington, D.C., and for the first time in our democracy, a duly elected president had to be sneaked into the White House under the cover of darkness. Decades before Lincoln, Joseph Smith’s progressive announcement that he would run for president on an anti-slavery platform was explosive and all but doomed. His plans of turning prisons into learning institutions, or giving felons jobs on public works projects, or annexing Texas and Oregon into the Union, were lost to angry mobs that would take his life four months after his announcement to run. Here is a brief look at the long history of Mormons and politics.

Under the leadership of Joseph Smith, Nauvoo was growing faster and larger than most cities in America, including neighboring Chicago. When Joseph contemplated a run for the White House, he was up against a litany of new laws designed by the establishment to leave things as they were. Slavery was growing more and more divisive and was barely eased by sneaking black citizens out of southern plantations and hiding them in a northerly network of basements, attics, and barns. The issue of slavery was not ignored by the Prophet; even before his candidacy, he once said regarding slavery, “It makes my blood boil.”

Joseph’s campaign started in Nauvoo in February of 1844, and soon news spread to neighboring states that the Mormon prophet was running for president. He was then serving as lieutenant general of the Nauvoo Legion, which at the time had over three thousand men and was second in size only to the U.S. Army. He was also the mayor of the city.

Nauvoo was already making news around the country and so were the “Mormons.” Newspapers and magazines were publishing stories and drawings of the flourishing city. Nauvoo was the subject of many books written by travelers who happened upon it on their trips down the Mississippi.

Joseph Smith fascinated most readers, even, or particularly, when the news of him was critical. His name was already deemed good or bad among many Americans. Etchings and drawings of him that appeared in print frequently showed him in formal or proper attire and often plump and noble looking. Eastern reporters and dignitaries that came to meet Joseph were surprised that he was the strong, young man who helped carry their luggage from the steamboat. He loved to work and was often in his work clothes. His home, by necessity, was converted into a hotel of sorts, and many times it was full. There were nights when he and Emma would sleep out on the front lawn because every room in the house was occupied.

Joseph’s bid for president included a pamphlet outlining his views on government and policy. He proposed several ideas that were progressive and even dangerous, yet long after Joseph Smith, when Lincoln announced his candidacy in nearby Springfield, Illinois, his anti-slavery ideas were explosive and deadly. Lincoln’s life was threatened from the moment he began his campaign. When Booth eventually killed him, it was the third time someone had shot at him.

Not far from Springfield, and fifteen years before Lincoln, Joseph not only called for an end to slavery, but he actually published a plan on how it could be done by 1850. Joseph wrote:

“I ever feel a double anxiety for the happiness of all men, both in time and in eternity, where the Declaration of Independence which states that we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; but at the same time some two or three million of our people are held as slaves for life, because the spirit in them is covered with a darker skin than ours. Government officers, who are nothing more nor less than the servants of the people, ought to be directed to ameliorate the condition of all, black or white, bond or free; for ‘God hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on the face of the earth.’

“’We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice … and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity’ meant just what it said without reference to color or condition. Petition, also, ye goodly inhabitants of the slave states, your legislators to abolish slavery by the year 1850, or now, and save the abolitionist from reproach and ruin, infamy and shame. Pray Congress to pay every man a reasonable price for his slaves out of the surplus revenue arising from the sale of public lands, and from the deduction of pay from the members of Congress.”

Joseph Smith’s progressive ideas fell prematurely on the printed pages of history decades before it would begin to embrace such concepts. He declared the debtor’s prisons to be cruel and unjust. He wanted to reduce the number of congressmen to just two per state, and suggested Congress take no more pay than the hard working farmers, “who earn an honest living.”

Whatever role the Prophet Joseph Smith would have played as the president of the United States was ended on June 27, 1844, just four months after his announcement to run.

In the rotunda of the U.S. Capital Building in Washington, D.C., is a series of statues of past state leaders. Brigham Young’s statue, carved in marble, sits among them on the east side of the room. It stands as a monument to someone who not only settled Utah, but who really colonized much of the west. In addition to Utah, Brigham Young also helped to settle Arizona, Nevada, Idaho, California, Colorado, New Mexico, and Wyoming.

As the first governor of the Deseret Territory, Brigham Young did much to build a place where people could not only live, but thrive. He went to work on the infrastructure of what was needed to sustain the people. First things first, Brigham proposed a cultural hall and theater. It would be a place where the Saints could get what he thought was essential to the human experience: some laughter and enjoyment. The cultural hall was one of the first buildings to begin construction in the area.

He then went to work sending people to different parts of the West to settle towns. He established over 350 communities. He oversaw the building of canals, railroads, and temples. He founded banks, stores, schools, and several universities. He literally created dozens of other industries so that citizens would have plenty of work and commerce.

Brigham Young saw the need and benefit of educating women. He not only opened the Deseret University (now the University of Utah) to all women, but he also sent groups of women back east to medical schools and hospitals for training. Some of the very first female doctors in America were Mormon women. He amended the territory constitution to allow women and black citizens to vote.

Brigham Young was the first Latter-day Saint governor in American history, and the impact and growth of his ideas still continue to this day. The statue of him in the capitol building, sculpted by his grandson Mahonri, is there because of his role as an early leader, yet his success as a colonizer of the entire western United States is still being acknowledged and studied today.

In 1903, Reed Smoot was the first Latter-day Saint to become a U.S. senator. His arrival in Washington, D.C., created a stir that would soon build into an actual Senate investigation. At issue was whether or not Senator Smoot’s seat should be contested since he was a member of a church that was associated with plural marriage, though he never practiced plural marriage and the Church had issued its manifesto stopping the practice over decade before. Some insiders felt the investigation was a power play to keep one more Republican senator out, and Smoot was the easy target.

The proceedings went on for four years. The halls of the Senate were filled daily with spectators and reporters. When all was said and done, Senator Smoot took his seat in the Senate and everyone went back to work. He went on to serve in the Senate for a total of thirty years.

Senator Smoot became one of the most respected and powerful senators on Capitol Hill. He became a close friend and confidant to President Warren G. Harding, who, in 1920, offered Smoot a seat on his cabinet as the head of the Treasury. His tireless efforts and unwavering integrity in the Senate earned him and the Latter-day Saints the respect and esteem of many Washington leaders. He has been recognized over the years as one of the great senators in American history.

The records surrounding his proceedings now fill over eleven feet of shelf space, the largest collection of proceedings in the National Archives. When speaking of the struggle Reed Smoot faced, President John F. Kennedy said:

“Fortunately the forces of reason and tolerance enabled him to take his seat. And in the years that followed, Senator Smoot earned the respect and affection of every Senator who had challenged him. He rose to be dean of the Senate and chairman of its powerful Committee on Finance—and no voice was ever heard to say that he had not been devoted solely to the public good as he saw it.”

As a young graduate from BYU and a returned missionary who served in Britain, Ezra Taft Benson began his career by going into agriculture, which was the leading industry in America. In 1939, when he was working at the University of Idaho, President Benson moved to Washington, D.C., where he became the executive secretary to the National Council of Farmer Cooperative. The first stake in Washington, D.C., was organized with Ezra Taft Benson as its stake president.

In 1953, Benson was asked by President Eisenhower to be the Secretary of the Agriculture, which was a very powerful position at the time. When he tried to explain that he was a busy apostle in his church and might not be the best candidate for the job, Eisenhower told him that the most spiritual work he could do was to strengthen his country. At the encouragement of President David O. McKay, Elder Benson took his seat in Eisenhower’s cabinet and became the second apostle in Church history to divide his time between the federal government and his work with the Church.

Joseph Smith announced that he would seek the office of president of the United States in February 1844. Up until that time, his highest elected office was that of mayor of Nauvoo. Shortly after his announcement, he released a pamphlet about his views on the policies of the federal government. It caused immediate turmoil with his enemies when he not only suggested abolishing slavery within five years, but he laid out a plan on how to do so.

Joseph Smith had unmatched experience in leading a large number of people and building a fast growing city. He was already the commander in chief of the second largest military body in America.

George W. Romney, father of Mitt Romney, announced his candidacy in 1966. He had been president of American Motors Corporation and served as a popular and respected governor of Michigan. For a time, he was the GOP favorite and was expected to take the nomination for his party.

Romney’s lead slipped in the polls and he eventually decided to withdraw from the presidential race when Nelson Rockefeller became a candidate. “There was no way I could get the nomination fighting both Rockefeller and Richard Nixon,” Romney told reporters. He went on to serve both in public and private endeavors.

Morris “Mo” Udall came from an early pioneer family that was among those who settled Mesa, Arizona. He served in Congress for almost two decades when he made a bid for the White House on the Democratic ticket. Some believed Udall had actually won his party’s nomination late into the night of the convention voting. He was declared the winner by several people, but by dawn’s early light, he was behind by 7,500 votes, and thus Jimmy Carter went on to represent the party.

Orrin Hatch, a Utah Senator for more than thirty years, has served with six U.S. Presidents. Although his political ambitions have often led him to seek appointments outside the Senate, such as a seat in the Supreme Court and the Attorney General’s Office, his most public attempt was his bid for president of the United Sates in 2000. He lost the bid to Texas Governor, George W. Bush.

Mitt Romney formally announced his candidacy in February 2007. His impressive victory in the race for Massachusetts governor astonished both Democrats and Republicans, creating a presidential buzz long before his announcement. His record for surmounting difficult tasks has always been impressive; winning a very liberal and mostly Catholic state was no small feat.

Some of Romney’s issues for his presidency include: simplifying the tax system, creating energy independence for America, fixing our competitive edge with Asia, and restoring the America’s educational lead in technology and sciences. Go to mittromney.com for more information.

1833: W.W. Phelps printed an explosive article in the Evening and Morning Star titled “Free People of Color.” The article invited black citizens from around the country to join the Church and move to Missouri to “live among” the Saints. Missouri was a slave state, and by law people could beat any free black person with ten lashes when he or she crossed in or out of the state. The article sparked a mob riot that led to the destruction of the press and the expulsion of the Saints from Missouri. In that same year the revelation came: “Therefore, it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another” (Doctrine and Covenants 101:79). This verse brought further violence to the Saints.

1838: John Corrill became the first Latter-day Saint ever to be elected to any office. He held a seat on the Missouri State Legislature. Few if any knew he was a Mormon.

1839: Joseph Smith traveled to Washington, D.C., and met with President Martin Van Buren at the White House. President Van Buren told Joseph Smith that nothing could be done about the lawlessness of the Missourians. The Prophet left a copy of the Book of Mormon with the president, met with and preached to several congressmen, and sat for interviews with a few national newspapers.

1841: The first missionary to be called to labor in the nation’s capitol, Samuel James, arrived in Washington, D.C.

1860: Abraham Lincoln, who met Joseph Smith and signed the Nauvoo charter when he was in the legislature in Illinois, was elected President of the United States on an anti-slavery platform.

1867: The Saints in Utah amended their constitution, removing the “Free, White, Male” requirement in order to vote. This cleared the way for both black citizens and women to vote. The U.S. Constitution would not guarantee these rights for blacks until 1870 and for women until 1920.

1868: In the October general conference, Brigham Young announced he would be sending Utah women to eastern universities to train as physicians. Many of the men in the medical schools were outraged and did anything they could to stop the women.

1872: The first woman to be deputized as a sheriff in the United States was an LDS woman named Ellen B. Ferguson.

1896: Martha Hughes Cannon ran for Utah State Senate on the Democratic ticket, and defeated her own husband who was running for the same seat as a Republican. She became the first woman in American history to serve as a state senator.

1896: Heber Wells became the first elected Governor of Utah, and the first Latter-day Saint to hold the office of Governor of any state (Brigham Young governed a territory).

1953: Ivy Baker Priest, an LDS woman from Coalville, Utah, became the first woman to ever serve as U.S. Treasurer. Her signature appeared on U.S. currency from 1953 to 1961.

1972: Jean Westwood, an LDS woman from Price, Utah, became the first woman in history to serve as chairperson of the National Democratic Committee.

1981: Paula Hawkins, who was LDS, became the first woman elected to the United States Senate to accompany her husband to Washington, D.C. As a result, the long standing “Senate Wives Club” was forced to change its name to the “Senate Spouse Club.”

1982: Bay Buchanan, while serving as the head of the U.S. Treasury Department, decided to take the missionary discussions and converted to the Church.

2006: Harry Reid from Nevada became the first LDS Senate majority leader, and the highest-ranking LDS politician.

In the fall of 1839, Joseph Smith and a small group of Latter-day Saints traveled to Washington, D.C., to meet with President Martin Van Buren. In a meeting held at the White House, the Prophet explained his situation and gave detailed accounts of the injustice the Saints had suffered at the hands of both lawless mobs and a renegade state government. President Van Buren gave his famous reply: “Your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you. If I take up for you, I shall lose the vote of Missouri.”

Abraham Lincoln walked down the cold streets of Washington, D.C., on November 18, 1861, to the Library of Congress and checked out a couple of books. Lincoln’s signature and his government office, “President, U.S.,” appears in the library ledger which notes that he took a copy of the Book of Mormon. Records show that he returned the book on July 29, 1862. He later had two other books delivered to the White House, Gunnison’s Mormons and Hyde’s Mormonism. Lincoln was already familiar with the Latter-day Saint people since he had met Joseph Smith in Illinois and was a signer on the original charter for Nauvoo.

Prior to his Mitt Romney’s Olympic service, most people knew more about Governor George Romney than they did his son. Mitt’s work in the private sector can be seen in the companies he helped create like: Staples, Domino’s Pizza, Sealy Mattress, Brookstone, and The Sports Authority. But at last it was his highly visible impact on the sinking 2002 Olympics that showcased what Mitt could do.

In his three years at the helm of the Salt Lake City Organizing Committee, Romney erased a $379 million operating deficit, organized 23,000 volunteers, galvanized both community and national spirit, and oversaw an unprecedented security mobilization just months after the September 11 attacks, leading to one of the most successful Olympics in our country’s history.

Romney surprised both Democrats and Republicans when he won the election for governor in a mostly liberal state, which seemed to always favor someone with the last name Kennedy. At the beginning of Romney’s term as governor of Massachusetts, his state was losing thousands of jobs every month. Then, in Olympic style, he went to work on a series of crushing problems. Without raising taxes or increasing debt, Governor Romney balanced the budget every year of his administration, closing a three-billion-dollar gap he inherited when he took office, transforming all deficits into surpluses. His agenda going forward, which is listed on his website (mittromney.com), details the top ten problems he would fix as president. It ranges from simplifying the tax system to competing with Asia in education and technology to protecting our global strengths.

Mitt Romney and his high school sweetheart-turned-wife have five sons, (Tagg, Matt, Josh, Ben, and Craig). Mitt attended BYU and was valedictorian. He went on to get his JD/MBA from Harvard Law and Harvard Business School.

Like Mitt Romney, a young presidential candidate, John F. Kennedy, was forced to answer many questions about his religion. Although he tried to focus on policy instead, the press wouldn’t let qualms about his religion go, despite the fact that Article VI of the U.S. Constitution states: “…no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

In 1960, while speaking from the pulpit in the Mormon Tabernacle on Temple Square, John F. Kennedy said the following in reference to his battle with the subject of his religion: “I am grateful to the presidency of the Latter-day Saint Church, and to its presiding bishopric, for according me the privilege of speaking within the historic walls of this magnificent tabernacle. This is an honor which I shall long remember.

“Tonight I speak for all Americans in expressing our gratitude to the Mormon people—for their pioneer spirit, their devotion to culture and learning, their example of industry and self-reliance. They suffered persecution and exile, at the hands of Americans whose own ancestors, ironically enough, had fled here to escape the curse of intolerance.

“But they never faltered in their devotion to the principle of religious liberty—not for themselves alone, but for all mankind. And in the eleventh Article of Faith, the Prophet Joseph Smith not only declared in ringing tones: ‘We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience’—but he also set forth the belief that all men should be allowed ‘the same privilege. Let them worship how, where, or what they may.’ Then—and only then—can we truly heed the command which Brigham Young heard from the Lord more than a century ago—the command he conveyed to his little band of followers: ‘Go as pioneers, to a land of peace.’”

“now you do”

I don’t see having more than one account here as inherently dishonest. If resty used multiple account to mislead someone, that is another matter, but you should keep in mind that we believe in repentance and forgiveness too and you are in no position to judge someone’s temple worthiness. Even if you know of their flaws, you don’t know if they have sought and recieved forgiveness.

“you are now an “affiliate with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, as there are individuals who would persecute you for your faith, malign the BOM, and / or Joseph Smith.”

No, because I am opposing them, not joining with them. If I was taking their side, THEN I would be affiliating myself with them and there would be an issue about temple worthiness. My kids attend a Catholic school, so do many others in my ward, including one of the Bishop’s counselors, and the kids of a previous Bishop. You do not understand the question, it isn’t about avoiding contact, it’s about where your allegiance lies.

“I was asking legitimate questions - perhaps youd like to address them ?”

Scanning the thread, it seems the gist of your questions is asking why access to temples is restricted. We consider them to be sacred places, literal houses of God, and God has set a standard for those who want to enter into his house to meet, just as God has a standard for those who wish to enter heaven to meet before they can enter there.

When Moses was called to come talk with God on top of Sinai, the children of Israel had to wait down below and were not permitted to go up. Same principle.

I haven't run across a single historical incident of intentional murder of Mormon women or young children, with the exception of the murder of a 10-year old boy at Haun's Mill.

What version of the Haun's Mill massacre have you been reading? Here is the information from a website (the Church of Christ owns Haun's Mill now.) (Some of this information is from the Church of Christ's website, formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Some of it came from my great-great-great grandfather's journal.) Story of Haun's Mill A Tragic Episode in American Religious History

230 Missourians against 35 men in a mill? 17 died, 19 escaped, and of those 19, only four weren't shot. Three boys were hiding and shot.
3 Missourians were injured. The mob looted the mill and tossed 14 dead bodies into a well. (3 of the wounded Mormons later died.) Within days, the survivors of the Haun's Mill Massacre were driven out of the state of Missouri.
The saddest part about the whole affair was that it could have been avoided. The Mormons who lived around Haun's Mill were urged to go to Far West where there would be safety in numbers. However, most wanted to stay and guard their property and Haun wanted to guard his mill. So they asked the captain of the Mormon Militia for his advice. He told them to go to Far West and abandon their homes and businesses. They didn't like that answer and so the captain told them to go ask Joseph Smith. They did so and received the same answer (go to Far West.) Sad to say, they did not follow Joseph Smith's advice, returned to Haun's Mill and were slaughtered.

Haun's Mill Massacre

Certain deaths were particularly offensive to the Saints. Seventy-eight-year-old Thomas McBride surrendered his musket to militiaman Jacob Rogers, who shot him, then hacked his body with a corn knife. William Reynolds discovered ten-year-old Sardius Smith hiding under the bellows and blew the top of the child's head off.

An estimated three hundred Church members lost their lives during these troubled times in Missouri when the Missouri settlers drove them out of the state at gunpoint. After a century and a half of study and reflection, it can be seen that some of their sorrows could have been avoided by the use of more discretion and meekness. The native Missourians were frightened by the talk of the Mormons saying that the 2nd Coming of Christ would be in Jackson County.

I didn't say that Haun's Mill wasn't a great tragedy. I said that the women and young children there, with the exception of the 10-year old who was murdered, were not massacred.

Three boys were hiding and shot.

How old were these boys and were they combatants?

As I'm sure you know, there were atrocities committed by both sides in Missouri. The Missourians committed more, but that was because they had far greater numbers, and had greater opportunity to do so.

It is notable that Mormons make great play out of the "extermination order" issued by the Gov, but seldom mention that his order was in direct response to an inflammatory Mormon sermon threatening extermination of the Missourians. It is also notable that the Mormons were NOT exterminated, despite losing the war and being at the mercy of the Missourians.

It appears to me that the gentile women and children murdered at Mountain Meadows, in the most atrocious and treacherous way imaginable, are a multiple of the Mormon women and children intentionally murdered by their gentile opponents in all the years of conflict in MO and IL.

As stated earlier, I agree that many women and children doubtless died as a result of hardships induced by being expelled from their homes, and that some may have died as collateral damage. But that is quite different from intentionally shooting down women and children, as I'm sure you agree.

An estimated three hundred Church members lost their lives during these troubled times in Missouri when the Missouri settlers drove them out of the state at gunpoint.

I've been looking for years for a documented compilation of these deaths: who, when, where and the circumstances of each. Do you have a source for such a compilation? Surely somebody has compiled one.

So it was OK for the Missourians to ride into Haun’s Mill (I’ve read accounts of the numbers being 230-250 men) and start shooting at the families? There had been a truce negotiated on Sunday, Oct 28th. The militia sent a representative who negotiated with the Mormons. The Mormon settlers also decided upon a defense and 28 men were armed and ready for anything that might happen.

The militia rode into Haun’s Mill at about 4 pm (there were about 30-40 LDS families.) Remember, the families thought there was a truce. David Evans, a leader in the community ran towards the militia, waving his hat and calling for peace. Alerted to the militia’s approach, most of the Latter-day Saint women and children fled into the woods to the south—while most of the men stayed behind to fight, entrenching themselves in the blacksmith shop. There were about 36 men in the blacksmith shop, which had large spaces in between the logs. The Missouri militia shot the men inside the blacksmith shop (kind of like shooting fish in a barrel.) Those wounded or who had surrendered were shot at point blank range. Several women were chased, beaten, and raped. One 12 year old girl was shot in the hand as she held up her hands. She started running and hid behind a log and the men kept shooting at her. She survived, but there were at least 20 bullet holes in the log.

The three boys were found hiding in the blacksmith shop. So they were part of the defense, however, one militia man noted that most of the Mormons were unable to even get to their guns, or get them into a position to fire them.

Many historians have concluded that the extermination order given by Governor Lilburn Boggs was not the cause of the Haun’s Mill Massacre. It had been issued 3 days earlier, so there was probably no way for the militia to hear about it. However, I find it disturbing that some people find it OK that the order was issued and no one was killed because of it. And the order was issued because of a speech? That was the only time in American history that such an order was issued by a governor.

And yes, Sidney Rigdon gave the infamous Salt Sermon after he had been tarred and feathered. It was not a good thing to do. However, there is no record of any Mormons going out and killing anyone after that sermon. There was a battle at a creek (the name escapes me right now) that was instigated by the Mormons. However the leader was killed and I think a couple of Missourians were also.

It is eerie to read of the coincidences of the Haun’s Mill Massacre and the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Both were despicable tragedies, perpetrated by fear and misunderstandings.

And I do agree deliberately shooting the women and children at Mountain Meadows was cowardly and those men will pay for their actions in the hereafter.

Thousands of Mormons were driven from their homes in Kirtland Ohio, Missouri (twice), and from Nauvoo. They would lose their homes and businesses. My great-great-great grandfather was born in Missouri and was one of the first converts in that area. He and his family were driven out of Missouri and in his journal he records watching many of the poorer Saints trudging out of Missouri, leaving bloody footprints behind.

After the Mormons were driven out of Nauvoo, Illinois (early than planned), many died crossing the Mississippi river. Many died at Winter Quarters.

I can contact a church history professor I know about the numbers and if there is anything published. However, for me personally, I try to forgive those who were persecuted and killed on both sides.

I specifically said that Haun’s Mill was a great tragedy. How do you get from that that I think it was OK?

Part of the cause of the Mountain Meadows massacre were rumors passing among Mormons that the emigrants were poisoning wells and cattle, planned to return from CA and kill all the Mormons, etc. I would be very surprised if similar rumors of Mormon actions and intentions didn’t play a role at Haun’s Mill. The men were also reacting to a skirmish a few days before, won by the Mormons, in which wounded Missourians were killed and mutilated.

The large number of deaths among the Mormon men at Haun’s Mill was a result of their decision to fight despite being greatly outnumbered and in a horrible tactical position. (The logs of the blacksmith shop were widely spaced for ventilation, making the position more of a deathtrap than a fort.)

However, Haun’s Mill and Mountain Meadows are not really comparable.

Haun’s Mill was an episode in mob violence. Other incidents in American history have produced similar or even greater losses of life caused by mobs, albeit with racial or economic motivations rather than religious ones.

Mountain Meadows stands quite alone in American history for its cold-blooded and planned nature, high death toll, intentional targetting of women and children, treachery and generally successful coverup.

I find it disturbing that a good many Mormons try to partially or completely justify such a despicable act by comparing it to the persecution suffered by Mormons 20 years earlier and over a thousand miles away. As if this persecution could possibly in any way justify murder of children who weren’t even born when it took place.

I am not including you in this group, but I did run across a particularly revolting website posted by a Mormon in which he essentially claimed that Mountain Meadows was fully justified as an act of self-defense.

I also find it interesting that there was never any revenge taken on the Mormons for Mountain Meadows. J.D. Lee was scapegoated, and everybody just sort of dropped the issue.

how do you reconcile the veil in the Temple being ripped from the top down at the giving up the Ghost on the Cross? Once God ended the separation between man and God through the Atonement, how is it that Joseph Smith re-established it thus setting aside the Atonement?

To all of Israel, the holy of holies represented the very presence of God among men. The barrier which kept the high priest from entering this place was the veil of the temple. For a human hand to remove the veil and reveal the holy of holies would have been considered a sacrilegious desecration punishable by death. But the temple was not rent by a mortal hand:

Bruce R. McConkie “Christ is now sacrificed; the law is fulfilled; the Mosaic dispensation is dead; the fulness of the gospel has come with all its light and power; and so—to dramatize, in a way which all Jewry would recognize, that the kingdom had been taken from them and given to others—Deity rent the veil of the temple ‘from the top to the bottom.’ The Holy of Holies is now open to all, and all, through the atoning blood of the Lamb, can now enter into the highest and holiest of all places, that kingdom where eternal life is found. Paul, in expressive language (Heb. 9 and 10), shows how the ordinances performed through the veil of the ancient temple were in similitude of what Christ was to do, which he now having done, all men become eligible to pass through the veil into the presence of the Lord to inherit full exaltation.” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:830.)

What is the symbolic meaning of the veil being rent? Undoubtedly, it marked the end to a system of temples designed to commemorate the bloody sacrifice of the firstborn Son of God. The Great Sacrifice had been offered; the temples of the Aaronic Priesthood would no longer be necessary. Furthermore, to the wicked chief priests, the torn veil represented God’s displeasure with their apostate disbelief. They had daily offered lamb after lamb on the altars of the temple, and yet rejected the Lamb of God. He was, therefore, rejecting them.

To the righteous, the rent veil meant the final barrier had been broken. While before, only the high priest could approach the veil; now, the way into the very presence of God had been prepared by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Don't forget, Paul and the others continued to worship at the temple after the crucification and renting of the veil. Why would they do this if the temple didn't mean anything to them after that?

You got around to asking an extremely vital question, especially for Mormonism: "Don't forget, Paul and the others continued to worship at the temple after the crucification and renting of the veil.Why would they do this if the temple didn't mean anything to them after that?"

It is astonishing that you and other Mormonism Apologists can pick out points of the Church Age yet ignore the whole picture as taught throughout the New Testament. Your religion is based in temple ordinances and worship ... for what purpose? To give yourselves the form of godliness while denying the power thereof to set you free from the Law which saves no man! The Book of Romans makes plain the state of those in Christ, righteousified by faith not of works of the law! [Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.] Yet your false prophet set up an entire system of temple ordinances and worship which is required in order to step onto some fantasy road to higher heavens and belonging to the Mormonism church is to worship restored Christianity! What a clear heresy! Wherefore did Christianity take a 1400+ year break?

Your own Hinckley preaches the end of priesthood enslavements yet your religion is based entirely upon the reestablishment of this Christ-cancelled ordinance system. The irrational aspects of believing lies on top of lies never seems to awaken some of you. Many leave Mormonism when they realize how contradictory and downright heresy laden Mormonism is.

When Paul when to Temple and even went through ritual washings and cleansings for such, he did so to reach Jews still stuck in the ordinance religion which Christ ended! If Paul had not gone through the rituals of cleansing, etc. he would not have been received into their midst and could not have met them where they were in order to bring them to the freedom in Christ Jesus! That you refuse to understand that tells me you most likely are pridefully building up your righteousness with your ordinances rather than placing your immortal spirit at God's mercy and Grace in Christ Jesus.

Te veil was in place prior to Jesus coming amongst us to prevent God's shakinah glory from destroying the outer not to prevent the people from coming in. Death awaited any Priest who entered in to the Holy of Holies without the proper blood offering and cleansing. Was this to prevent God from being sullied? No, His Righteousness would consume the entire universe if exposed directly to It!

Just being in God's presence caused Moses's face to glow, and he wasn't allowed to see the face of God because the eyes of God would have instantly consumed him in his unrighteous state. I'm currently doing a study which will discuss the point of Whose body was Moses allowed to see the backside of on the Mountain? It was Christ, I'm convinced! And had Moses seen His face, the Glory of the Risen Lord walking to/in Moses's time would have burned up Moses instantly. But that's grist for another discussion. The point is that Paul went to the Jewish Temples at each city he visited, first, before preaching to the Gentiles, because of what Christ taught about the children's food (look that one up) and the necessity to not step on Jewish toes everywhere he went because Jesus of Whom Paul preached was a Jewish Rabbi! And if you will read Paul's letters you will see that he explained exactly that as his reason for entering the Jewish Temples.

You Apologists have to twist nearly every aspect of Christianity and Christian learning for the past 2000 years in order to fit it speciously into your cult. It gets tiring always having to correct your duplicitous, irrational, contradictory doctrines and ordinances and mischaracterizations of Scripture passages. Christ has freed us from the Law for the Law made no man righteous. And once saved, there isn't a work of any sort that can compare to what Christ in you portends as The Hope Of Glory. You cannot do a work to add even a speck to what Christ has already accomplished for you. To imagine you can insults God's Grace toward you.

You post this nonsense then get upset and spew 'anti-mormon' epithets when someone points out the foolishness of the teaching: "... all men become eligible to pass through the veil into the presence of the Lord to inherit full exaltation." sevebak, the priest went into the Holy of Holies with the blood to be sprinkled for an atonement, not for any exaltation or pact of goodness to allow exaltation of the mortal, but to obtain the Mercy of God! PERIOD!

You and your Mormonism Apologist friends and apparently your presidents and 'prophets' do not divide the Word of God correctly but twist it to fabricate lies not there but ones you and the spirit of your cult want to be there. Exaltation indeed! Just how blasphemous do you want to get? How much do you think you can do to bring God into an 'God owes you' relationship? And that's you cue to deny your ordinances and doctrines aren't designed for that purpose, but your own false prophet says they are and that has been reinforced ever since the establishment of Mormonism.

Take a lesson from the first Church Council at Jerusalem and the final decision issued from them to be carried by paul and Barnabas on their missionary journeys. Stop trying to judaize the Grace of God in Christ which has the power to make one a new creation, not for that one's exaltation but to just enter into the family of God. Take a lesson fromt he Book of Ruth, that once in the family, gleaning is no longer needed because all that is in the barn is yours as a member of the family. Take a lesson from Esther, that you enter in to seek God's mercy, and if you perish you perish, but you can expect only Mercy through His Grace and not exaltation from your efforts.

MHGinTN, while I appreciate what you are trying to do (save my soul from your definition of my “ordinance based religion”) I should point out that what the Apostles did following the resurrection of Christ was not strictly for outward principles to be accepted by nonbelievers. Quite the contrary:

Acts 2:
41 ¶ Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

You are trying to lump the whole post-Christ temple worship into a single incident with Saul /Paul. I am not so narrowly focused in my attempt to discuss. Did or did not the believing Christians worship in the temple, have all things in common, attain membership through baptism, etc.???

Oh, I left off another reference as well. This one from the last book of the OT, the book of Malachi. This is a last days prophecy leading up to the second coming. It’s important in it’s context.

1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner’s fire, and like fullers’ soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
7 ¶ Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?

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