Posted on 06/23/2007 11:07:39 AM PDT by Bokababe
Received this morning from Simon Wiesenthal Center’s Israel Director Efraim Zuroff (bold emphasis added): “Wiesenthal Center Expresses Outrage At Massive Outburst of Nostalgia for Croatian Fascism at Zagreb Rock Concert”:
Jerusalem – The Simon Wiesenthal Center today expressed its sense of outrage and disgust in the wake of a massive show of fascist salutes, symbols and uniforms at a rock concert by popular ultra-nationalist Croatian singer “Thompson” attended by 60,000 people in Zagreb last night. In a letter sent today to Croatian President Stjepan Mesic, the Center’s chief Nazi-hunter Israel director Dr. Efraim Zuroff noted the presence of Croatian dignities, including the Minister of Science, Education and Sports, at the event and called for the banning of concerts by singers like Thompson who glorify fascism and racism. According to Zuroff:
“According to the Croatian media, the concert turned into a massive fascist demonstration with tens of thousands of people shouting the infamous Ustasha salute of “Za dom spremni.” In addition,… numerous participants came wearing Ustasha uniforms and symbols. To make matters worse, in attendance last night were officials and members of Parliament, as well as the Minister of Science, Education [!!] and Sports.
“Under the current circumstances, I believe that the time has come to prohibit public concerts by those who write songs of nostalgia for Jasenovac and inspire the show of Ustasha symbols, which constitute open and blatant incitement against all the minorities in Croatia.”
(Excerpt) Read more at juliagorin.com ...
Really, to all; what a turnabout, a few years ago, an anti-Pope Pius XII book came out, now a new book that is not anti-Pope Pius XII released on May 30; and maybe already written about on Free Republic
Sounds a bit outrageous; and so many books come out on everything World War II; this new one is on a supposed plot to kidnap Pope Pius XII by the Nazis.
Review excerpt:
“Veteran popular historian Kurzman (The Bravest Battle) relates how a Hitler-Himmler order in 1943 to kidnap the pope and seize Vatican files and treasures was twice delayed and finally undermined by a group of high German officers and officials in Rome.”
You wrote:
“The fact is I could care less about you or what you choose call your religious affiliation, Vlad — except that you refused to admit that Stepinac is considered “a Saint” in YOUR Church...”
You keep making these bizarre errors. Stepinac is considered a “Blessed”. Some may consider him a saint, but the Church has not canonized him yet so no one officially refers to him as a saint. I am surprised that you did not know this. What is worse is that I already pointed out that Stepinac was declared “Blessed” but said nothing about him having already been canonized because it hasn’t happened yet. Here you are arguing about Stepinac and you apparently know nothing of his status in the Church EVER AFTER BEING INFORMED OF IT. What does that tell us?
“... which answers to the Pope in Rome, commonly referred to as the Roman Catholic Church by non Roman Catholics.”
What some (not all) non-Catholics call the Catholic Church is irrelevant. The term “Roman Catholic” is a Protestant term. If you don’t believe me then look in the Oxford English Dictionary and you’ll see the term was invented by Anglican divines in the 16th century. I see no reason why I should use a Protestant term to refer to the Catholic Church.
“That’s it, period. Instead, you chose to take this off-topic into a game a narcissistic game of “Where’s Waldo?” about your religion, rather than answer a simple question directly and show that you have a vested interest in the outcome of the argument.”
What simple question? Show me the question in the original post.
Wait, I’ll do it for you because I don’t know if you can do it. Here’s the question I was asked in post #42: “Does this suggest that we should see additional Roman Catholic support for Croatian fascism or are you just acting alone?”
I answered with: “I am not “Roman Catholic.” I do not support fascism anywhere. And notice, I do not assume that, if you are Eastern Orthodox, that you automatically support any particular less than savory political movement in Eastern Europe. This concert is much ado about nothing. The over-reaction by several posters here does nothing but confirm that point.”
I answered your question directly. I was not asked if I was Catholic. It was assumed I was “Roman Catholic”. I corrected the assumption and then answered the incredibly leading and misleading question.
On the other hand, I made many points about Stepinac that NONE OF YOU POSTING AGAINST him have been able to answer or respond to in the least. One of you posted a forgery. I exposed it as a forgery. The reputed author denied the letter for decades. His family continues to this day to deny that he ever wrote it. Any response from you guys after it was shown to be a forgery? Nope. I post evidence – documented evidence. You guys post crap and try your hardest to pass it off as evidence.
That forgery was exposed in post #50. None of you ever touched or responded to that post. Not a single one of you. Yeah, you brave people. So, 71 posts later and no one on your side wants to admit that a forgery was being used. Lovely, just lovely.
“This behavior is blatantly dishonest, and hardly a ringing endorsement for your own personal Faith — regardless of what you choose to call it.”
My behavior has been above reproach. I have not been dishonest in any way. Again, look at the actual posts. I answered the questions. I was never asked if I was a Catholic. It was assumed I was a “Roman Catholic” – which I am not. I exposed a forgery for what it was and you guys all run for the hills and pretend not to notice it.
Don’t you have some goose stepping to do Adolf?
You wrote:
“Don’t you have some goose stepping to do Adolf?”
Wow, what an amazing proof of your inability to debate on a mature and intelligent level.
He's obviously talking out of his arse. I find it hard to believe that someone so "knowledgeable" about Serbian history doesn't know that Serbia's ties to the West go back some 900 years (The Crusades, 1096) and that most Serbian queens/tsarinas/princesses from the Mediaeval times were foreign-born (a solid indication of the developing political, economic & military ties and alliances).
Serbia was one of the most advanced, developed and powerful kingdoms in Europe for some 200 years (cca. 1160-1390), especially in the latter part, during the Emperor Dushan's reign (1330-1355).
Since Croatia had spent the entire 2nd millennium as a vassal of various foreign powers, it goes without saying that the country was "plugged into Europe" (whatever "Europe" meant prior to the 1800s). I just don't see how this can be portrayed as Croatia's achievement.
In the past Croats glorified fascism, the Serbs stalinism and the Muslims imported islamofasist terrorists as soon as they had a chance. Kinda hard to to go with any of those choices.
Banat, if you’re going to write in detail about what I said, you should probably ping me out of courtesy.
You wrote:
“He’s obviously talking out of his arse. I find it hard to believe that someone so “knowledgeable” about Serbian history doesn’t know that Serbia’s ties to the West go back some 900 years (The Crusades, 1096) and that most Serbian queens/tsarinas/princesses from the Mediaeval times were foreign-born (a solid indication of the developing political, economic & military ties and alliances).”
All true. And all irrelevant. I said Croatia was more plugged into Europe. I did not say Serbia had no relationship with Europe in 1096 or in “Mediaeval times”.
“Serbia was one of the most advanced, developed and powerful kingdoms in Europe for some 200 years (cca. 1160-1390), especially in the latter part, during the Emperor Dushan’s reign (1330-1355).”
Wonderful. Also irrelevant. Again, I never said Serbia didn’t have great medieval past. If you’re going to attack what I say (”He’s obviously talking out of his arse.”) then actually attck what I say rather than make up things I didn’t say. Is that too hard for you?
“Since Croatia had spent the entire 2nd millennium as a vassal of various foreign powers, it goes without saying that the country was “plugged into Europe” (whatever “Europe” meant prior to the 1800s). I just don’t see how this can be portrayed as Croatia’s achievement.”
I never portrayed that as Croatia’s achievement. I merely said it was the case and now you have admitted it. So, after all of your chest beating about the great, illustious and remote past greatness of Serbia, you admitted I was right anyway. If you knew I was right, and clearly you did, then why did you try to make it look like you were challenging what I said by throwing in a number of irrelevant points, distorting what I said and claiming I didn’t know what I was talking about?
Your own words confirmed you knew I was right: “...it goes without saying that the country was “plugged into Europe”..”
Thank you.
You are right on that. I did slip up on that issues because I am so used to hearing Stepinac referred to as "The Patron Saint of Genocide".
"What some (not all) non-Catholics call the Catholic Church is irrelevant. The term “Roman Catholic” is a Protestant term."
I am an Orthodox Christian, not "a Protestant". (And from the Orthodox point of view, Roman Catholicism is actually "Protestantism") But every week when I say the Nicene Creed, I say, "I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" and it does not refer to your Church. I would have to be a Roman Catholic to call your Church, "The Catholic Church" and I am not. Nor will I be bulled into calling it such.
On the other hand, I made many points about Stepinac that NONE OF YOU POSTING AGAINST him have been able to answer or respond to in the least. One of you posted a forgery. I exposed it as a forgery....I exposed a forgery for what it was and you guys all run for the hills and pretend not to notice it."
Your one and only source of a "refutation" came from a Roman Catholic website, which has a vested interest in whitewashing Stepinac given that they have given him the status of "Blessed". Hardly a rock solid, "objective" source, which is why you hear "silence".
"At one time ALL Russian churches considered themselves in union with Rome and did not feel threatened in their orthodoxy. Yes, that was before 1054, but it will happen again.
Please DO hold your breath on that one, Vlad. Until or unless the Pope renounces the tile "Vicar (Substitute) of Christ", I don't know an Orthodox Christian alive who would be willing to join with Roman Catholic Church, independent of what our Church leaders do. And I don't expect that renunciation anytime soon!
This whole conversation is grossly "off-topic" and really belongs in the religious debate area. But, in closing, I will say that it is people like you, Vlad, who send a chill up my spine every time I think that some sort of reunion between our Churches might just happen.
You wrote:
“You are right on that. I did slip up on that issues because I am so used to hearing Stepinac referred to as “The Patron Saint of Genocide”.”
Then maybe you should read history and not anti-Stepinac polemics who are clearly wrong.
“I am an Orthodox Christian, not “a Protestant”.”
Irrelevant. The term is Protestant. It doesn’t matter that you are Orthodox.
“(And from the Orthodox point of view, Roman Catholicism is actually “Protestantism”)”
That isn’t true and any Orthodox can tell you so. Many Eastern Orthodox believe Catholics have valid orders. How many Orthodox believe Presbyterians have valid orders? NONE. You don’t even know your own religion very well and yet you’re talling me about mine?
“But every week when I say the Nicene Creed, I say, “I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church” and it does not refer to your Church.”
Yes, actually it does. The Catholic Church is the Catholic Church.
“I would have to be a Roman Catholic to call your Church, “The Catholic Church” and I am not.”
No, you would have to be Catholic to recognize the Catholic Church for what she is. You don’t have to be anything but discerning to call her the Catholic Church.
“Nor will I be bulled into calling it such.”
Bulled? Do you mean bullied? You’re still wrong in any case.
“Your one and only source of a “refutation” came from a Roman Catholic website, which has a vested interest in whitewashing Stepinac given that they have given him the status of “Blessed”. Hardly a rock solid, “objective” source, which is why you hear “silence”.”
It’s irrefutable evidence – as demonstrated by the fact that you can’t do it, won’t do it and are making excuses for why you run from it.
“Please DO hold your breath on that one, Vlad. Until or unless the Pope renounces the tile “Vicar (Substitute) of Christ”,…”
Vicar, Rocket Scientist, DOESN’T MEAN SUBSTITUTE in this context. Open up any reputable dictionary and you’ll see the word in that usage means agent or administrative deputy. Again, we see that you have no idea of what you’re talking about.
“I don’t know an Orthodox Christian alive who would be willing to join with Roman Catholic Church, independent of what our Church leaders do. And I don’t expect that renunciation anytime soon!”
Actually I know of several Orthodox Christians who have joined the Catholic Church. Maybe you need to know more people.
“This whole conversation is grossly “off-topic” and really belongs in the religious debate area. But, in closing, I will say that it is people like you, Vlad, who send a chill up my spine every time I think that some sort of reunion between our Churches might just happen.”
Yeah, gee, you wouldn’t want to have a reunion with a Church that actually teaches her members to get their facts straight (and they do so), not make outrageous claims about a saintly man (according to ALL the evidence) and not basically make oneself look silly. Yeah, how terrible. I have a much different view than you. I am more than willing to see a faithful reunion of the churches no matter what kind of fool you are. I say that because it is not about me or you, but about the whole people of God being united and faithful Him. You, on the other hand, apparently think the world revolves around you and your feelings (“chill up my spine”).
But it’s true, you are defending Nazis, why?
You wrote:
“But it’s true, you are defending Nazis, why?”
I have never once defended Nazis. I never even defended the Ustashe.
Show me where I did. When you can’t do that, will you be man enough to admit it?
You hit the nail on the head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwpO-nnFY9g&mode=related&search=
If I ma not mistaken though, then this even was held in Croatia. So I do not understand why you are going after the Serbs. Moreover, Croatia sided with the Nazis against Serbia in WWII. Croatia is now a breeding ground for radical Islam too. I know Bill Clinton bombed the Serbs, and they were accused of genocide. Nevertheless, I think Croatia was up to the same but never heard anything about it.
The way I understand it Serbia is primarily Christian, and Croatia is primarily Muslim. Then again I may be wrong.
You wrote:
“The way I understand it Serbia is primarily Christian, and Croatia is primarily Muslim. Then again I may be wrong.”
I think you’re confusing Bosnia with Croatia in regard to Muslims.
I saw on Discovery/History and right now, it is in the magazine “World War II” (or the similar magazine, “America in World War II”) on the newstand now, that America definitely had real Nazi sympathisers back in the 1930s.
Somewhere back east, NY or Pennsylvania; was like some sort of camp.
One searches for this on google and you get too many hits on all sorts of subjects, mostly left wing or wacked out skinhead stuff.
Oh, this link, http://www.bytwerk.com/gpa/naziimages.htm with a picture from Chicago way back in 1931 does confirm this.
Stop trying to rationalise what your NAZI Croatian buddies do and the EVIL they ALL believe in!!
Over 60,000 young and old at the PRO-NAZI concert....YUK!
Wish somebody had dropped a STINK BOMB on the whole lot.
Nobody is reading all that crap you cut and paste.
"Personally, I don't care what your religion is. You could have argued honestly as a Roman Catholic, but instead you chose to lie about who and what you were -- unless you want to argue that the choice of your tagline from a Roman Catholic Saint from Dalmatia,was "pure coincidence" -- which is just too ridiculous for words."
"You've lied about something as obvious as this, then the rest of what you say has zero credibility to anyone other than your fellow propagandists and the "truly stupid"!
THIS BEARS REPEATING OVER AND OVER AGAIN!!! and over and over....
GET LOST PUNK!
It's all about about that "little" commandment, THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS... too.
The SS divisions formed by Croats, Muslims and Albanians in WWII murdered and helped to murder thousands of Serbs,Jews and Gyspies!! Croats were allied with muslims, in WWII and eventually in the civil war in Yugoslavia in the 1990s.
You wrote:
“Just shut the heck up!!”
No. Since I have the right to speak and in fact am actually correct, I see no reason to grant your wish.
“Stop trying to rationalise what your NAZI Croatian buddies do and the EVIL they ALL believe in!!”
I neither tried to rationalize what the Croatians did, nor are they Nazis, nor are they my buddies.
“Over 60,000 young and old at the PRO-NAZI concert....YUK!”
Except it wasn’t a pro-Nazi concert. I know these little facts bother you, but there it is.
“Wish somebody had dropped a STINK BOMB on the whole lot.”
Are you 12? Maybe 13? Come back when you can grow facial hair.
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