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They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today
Saundra Duffy

Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy

They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious bigotry, alive and well today

May 4, 2007 - by Saundra Duffy-Hawkins

“I wouldn’t vote for a Mormon for dogcatcher, much less President of the United States!” There’s a lot of that kind of hateful rhetoric going around since Mitt Romney decided to throw his hat in the ring – as if Mormons are some kind of hideous evil monsters. The loudest anti-Mormon shouts, sad to say, are coming from America’s so-called “Christian right”. How can Mitt Romney hope to get a fair shake in this spiritually polluted atmosphere?

There was another man running for President who faced the same dilemma – John F. Kennedy – only he was the target of anti-CATHOLIC bigotry. In his 1960 speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, JFK said the following: “. . .I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end - where all men and all churches are treated as equal - where man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice - where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind - and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their words in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.” John F. Kennedy Library & Museum (Speeches, 1960). By the way, if you listen to the audio version of JFK’s speech, you will hear the hurt and frustration in his voice and the unfair treatment surely must have caused many a sleepless night.

Fast forward to 2007 where JFK might as well have been “whistlin’ Dixie”. The hostility toward Mormons today, in my opinion, is even worse than that suffered by JFK. Although it is said that JFK lost about a million votes to religious intolerance, Romney stands to lose even more if the anti-Mormon evangelicals hang together.

According to Media Matters for America - “. . . a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media” - FOX News is not reporting accurately on the level of evangelical hostility to the Romney run. Media Matters for America points out that among evangelical leaders rejecting Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson (National Day of Prayer and Focus on the Family, respectively), the Southern Baptist Convention (collectively), Pat Robertson (Christian Broadcasting Network), and Dr. D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida). “Among many conservative evangelicals – who comprise a significant part of the Republican base – Mormonism is considered an un-Christian cult.” Media Matters for America (2007)

While stumping in Florida, a man in the audience stood up during the Q&A portion and said the following to Romney: “You, sir, you’re a pretender. You do not know the Lord. You’re a Mormon.” Media Matters for America (2007). This is the kind of un-American, disrespectful treatment Mitt Romney will apparently have to endure throughout the entire campaign – as if just being a Mormon is reason enough to open the floodgates for free flow of pent-up hatred and vindictiveness.

For the record, the Mormon bashers know full well that the official name of Romney’s church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” and the members should rightfully be called “members of the LDS Church” but the words “Mormon” and “Mormonism” have an aura of negativity so they prefer to use the “M” word as if it were dirty.

Less than five minutes cruising around the official LDS website (LDS.org) will show anyone who’s interested that the Church is a Christian organization, with Jesus Christ at the Head. There are no paid clergy – all are volunteers. Humanitarian aid is legendary. Members of the LDS Church believe in strong family values; they are patriotic, they are law-abiding upstanding citizens of their community. Many LDS young men right out of high school go on two-year missions – you know, the guys on bikes – and during their mission they don’t date, read newspapers, go to movies or watch TV; but rather they dedicate two years of their lives to serving others. Many women go on missions as well, and couples, only theirs is 18 months in length but the obligations are basically the same. Most members do not shop or go out to eat on Sundays – reminiscent of the good old days when shops and stores were closed in obedience to the Commandment, “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy”. If they can help it, LDS Church members do not work on Sundays, either, preferring to spend the day at church and with their families. Church members are encouraged to store up a year’s supply of food and water so they will be able to care for their families in the event of an emergency. The LDS Church believes in self-sufficiency and self-reliance but in the event of a financial hardship the Church distributes food and supplies through their welfare (Bishop’s Storehouse) program. Members of the LDS Church do not drink alcohol nor do they use illicit drugs; they do not drink coffee and tea. A Mormon in good standing, therefore, will not be found in a drunken stupor puking her guts out at 3 a.m. anywhere in the world. Furthermore, members of the church are encouraged to dress modestly, be polite and courteous. And members of the LDS Church are faithful tithe payers. Come on, people, what’s not to love?

So what on earth is their beef, the anti-Mormon zealots? Why is there such disdain for the LDS Church and its members? In Hugh Hewitt’s book, “Mormon in the White House?” he states his thesis that the fierce anti-Mormon sentiment among main-stream Christians stems from one or two or all three of the following factors (in order of importance):

1) “It is just too weird.

2) “A Mormon president will supercharge Mormons’ missionary work.

3) “If there is a Mormon in the White House, Salt Lake City will call the shots, at least on the biggest issues.” Hewitt (2007, p. 221-227)

Hugh Hewitt has written an exquisite book about the Romney campaign and overcoming the “Mormon problem.” It’s a good read and I highly recommend it. Of the three problem points listed in the previous paragraph, Hewitt believes – unless some unforeseen blunder destroys his chances – none of the three is insurmountable for Mitt Romney. (Plus, he has the best hair.)

Well, I’m no Hugh Hewitt, not even close; he’s an icon on the conservative radio talk show circuit. Hewitt could talk circles around me (I’ve seen him in action in Sacramento); he’s brilliant; he’s well educated, well read, no doubt a genius, plus he’s kind of cute. I’m basically a “nobody” – an overweight grandma – but after having researched for this paper, I have come to a totally different conclusion as to why there is such in-your-face angst over Romney’s religion of choice: It’s all about money, power and control (in that order). I think they’re (the evangelical religious bigots, that is) scared half to death and are revving up their attacks, not to save souls, but to save their reputations (which if tarnished would lead to financial ruin).

As I said, all one must do is browse around the LDS official web site to see what the LDS Church believes and stands for. Any reasonable person would conclude that Mormons are not evil monsters at all. In fact, they are God fearing, Christ believing, Holy Ghost following people going about doing good. “You will know them by their fruit” and the LDS has plenty of fruit and they are willing to share.

Earlier, I stated that some high-powered ministries have publicly condemned Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson, the Southern Baptist Convention, Pat Robertson, and Dr. D. James Kennedy – just to name a few. There are hoards of others. Sunday after Sunday, preachers, evangelists, reverends and ministers from all Christian denominations pound the pulpit with anti-Mormon rhetoric. I heard the message loud clear when I was a Baptist and when I tiptoed through evangelical/Pentecostal territories. Was I ever miffed when I later learned for myself the Gospel truth about the LDS Church.

Just think about it, please. If Dr. D. James Kennedy, for example, who wrote the book, The Wolves Among Us, were to admit he’d been wrong in labeling the LDS Church a “cult” that leads unwary ignorant people astray (to hell), what would become of his multi-million-dollar ministry? Suffice it to say, there’s big money to be had by sale of books, tapes, CD’s, videos, and other anti-Mormon propaganda, not to mention speaking engagements and world-wide religious crusades. We’re talking trillions, all told. I realize the anti-Mormon aspect of these ministries is but a small portion of the business, but if the truth came out, that they had been using falsehoods about the LDS Church as a cash cow, their entire empires could tumble.

The ABC News program 20/20 aired on March 23, 2007, exposed the lavish lifestyles of some of the top evangelical preachers – million dollar mansions and personal jets. ABC News - 20/20 (2007) (Again, the LDS Church has no paid clergy.)

It’s nothing new. Severe harassment and persecution has been the lot of the LDS Church since it’s inception in 1820 when a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith saw visions and communed with heavenly beings. Rather than discuss the spiritual aspects of the LDS Church, however, let’s stick to facts of history. Taken from a college-level early American history textbook, Joseph Smith, upon experiencing the visions and visitations, believed “that God had work for me to do, and that my name should be for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 292). The textbook continues, “They were met with hostility virtually everywhere they went . . . . As the movement gathered momentum, hundreds of people joined the church; entire congregations of churches of other faiths joined . . .” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 293)

During the dark time of American history when slavery was flourishing and when Native Americans were forced from their lands, the pioneers of the LDS Church also suffered at the hands of unscrupulous politicians, governmental leaders, and angry hate-filled mobs. “In the face of relentless persecution, Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, had led his flock to Illinois. There they had established the town of Nauvoo, which by the mid-1840’s had become the largest city in Illinois with over 15,000 people. . . In June 1844, a mob of non-Mormons broke into the jail where Smith was being held and killed both him and his brother. . .The Mormons abandoned Nauvoo in the spring of 1846 as anti-Mormons pounded the town with cannon, destroying the Great Temple. In a well-coordinated migration, 15,000 Mormons moved in stages to the Great Salt Lake.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 334-335) Many walked all the way and many died along the way, including innocent babes.

Joseph Smith at one time was tarred and feathered by a mob. No jury, no trial, no judge – and they had planned to castrate him, too. On October 27, 1838, the then governor of Missouri issued an “extermination order”: “The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary . . .” Far West History (n.d.) Please note that the order called for exterminating “Mormons” making no distinction between men, women and children, and indeed women and children were subject to the extermination order.

In an event known in LDS history as “the Haun’s Mill Massacre”, precipitated by the extermination order, 30 to 40 LDS families were surprised by some 200 to 250 militia. After the smoke cleared, seventeen LDS people lay dead including a ten-year-old boy. Thirteen LDS members were wounded including a woman and a seven-year-old boy. “A few Missourians returned the next day and took plunder.” LDS FAQ (n.d.) No Missouri militiamen were killed but three were wounded. Just a few years earlier, the LDS folk who died that day had been members of other churches - Congregational or Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian.

In l976, Governor Bond of Missouri officially rescinded the extermination order and presented apologies for the “unfortunate developments” it caused. Quoting from Governor Bond’s Executive Order: “WHEREAS, Governor Boggs’ order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and . . . Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering rescind Executive Order Number 44 dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs. . .” Far West History (n.d.) The individuals who harassed, abused, and even murdered Mormons in cold blood were never tried for their crimes.

I read Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail and it really touched my heart. There he was, suffering for the Lord in jail, and these religious leaders with highfalutin titles on the outside wrote an open letter (“A Call for Unity”) in which they criticize King’s tactics and basically blame King for the racial turmoil of the time. Though you can tell King is upset and hurt by the attack – made worse because he’s stuck in jail and can’t confront the religious leaders face-to-face – his response is gentle genius. “I wish you had commended the Negro sit-inners and demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer, and their amazing discipline in the midst of great provocation. One day the South will recognize its real heroes.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 881)

King has a few choice words for the Church, too: “If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 880)

King signs off with “Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood”.

There’s an eerie commonality between what JFK and MLK endured at the hands of the religious bigots of their day and what Mitt Romney is facing today. I hope and pray that Romney will be able to fend off these undeserved attacks from the religious hypocrites with the same grace, dignity and God-inspired resolve displayed by the other two.

A few popular bumper stickers read: “Honk if you love Jesus” and “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” or “Jesus is my co-pilot”. Yet, apparently, these same bumper-sticker Christians are the ones waging war against Mitt Romney’s run for the Presidency solely on the basis of his chosen faith in a Church that bears the name of the Savior of the world.

References

ABC News - 20/20 (2007). Philanthropic donations come from your heart, but where do they end up? Ex-money manager says "enough!" to secretive Christian Ministry spending. Glenn Ruppel & John Stossel. United States: ABC News.

Ayers, E. L., Gould, L. L., Oshinsky, D. M., & Soderlund, J. R. (2004). American Passages - a history of the United States - Volume I: to 1877 (2nd ed.). Belmont, California: Thomson/Wadsworth.

Barnet, S., & Bedau, H. (2005). Letter from Birmingham Jail. Current Issues and Enduring Questions - a guide to critical thinking and argument, with readings (7th ed., pp. 867-882). Boston and New York: Bedford/St. Martin's.

Far West History. (n.d.). The Extermination Order and how it was rescinded. Retrieved April 28, 2007, from http://www.jwha.info/mmff/exorder.htm

Hewitt, H. (2007). A Mormon in the White House? 10 things every American should know about Mitt Romney. Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.

John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum. (1960, September 12). Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://www.jfklibrary.org

Lds Faq. (n.d.). What was the Haun's Mill Massacre? Retrieved April 28-2007, 2004, from Brigham Young University Web Site: http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=57

Media Matters for America. (2007). Fox News whitewashes evangelical hostility to Romney's faith. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200702280002


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: boggsforgovernor; cuespookymusic; election; lds; mormon; mormons; romney; whitesalamanderblues
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To: xzins
I always thought that it was “through grace ~we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.”

I always thought that the supposed "most correct book on earth" (never mind that God, forbid, would ever start pitting one Scripture versus another like Joseph Smith did) said: "We are saved by grace AFTER all you can do."

This kind of grace, then, would never kick in til you've done all you can do. Who qualifies? Point out ONE person besides Jesus Christ who can say He's done everything He could do. (By our sins of omission alone, we all flunk)

861 posted on 05/06/2007 2:15:05 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: FastCoyote; colorcountry; MHGinTN
You know, Coyote, the apologists just refuse to acknowledge that they are debating with those of us who have either "been there, done that" or have spent years dealing with mormons in their communities.

I sometimes think that some of these posts are written in a state of denial.

862 posted on 05/06/2007 2:17:22 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Fred sez "I'm not interested in being the tallest midget in the room.." RUN FRED RUN!)
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To: Netizen
So, someone that couldn't pay the tithes could collect food etc. BUT NOT be allowed to enter the temple, in essence, not be allowed to go to church?

My widowed mother on social security was allowed to work in one of the church's office to "work off her tithe". She would never say what her hourly wage was.

863 posted on 05/06/2007 2:22:59 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Fred sez "I'm not interested in being the tallest midget in the room.." RUN FRED RUN!)
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To: Netizen; tantiboh; colorcountry

off to learn more about infrared cooking boy the food taste great!:)


864 posted on 05/06/2007 2:23:56 PM PDT by restornu (Elevate Your Thoughts!)
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To: restornu

My current husband of 24 years, and I were never sealed. I didn’t break any vow with him.

Resty you are spouting lies. I will ask you to stop because you might just be mistaken....

Are you suggesting that he divorce me now that I have left the Church? Just wondered what all that “unequally yoked” stuff was about.

I thought your husband had past. Perhaps I’m recalling wrong. Will he be 100 in three years?


865 posted on 05/06/2007 2:27:32 PM PDT by colorcountry (“It is wrong to criticize the leaders of the church even if the criticism is true” ~Dallin H. Oaks)
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To: colorcountry
Are you suggesting that he divorce me now that I have left the Church? Just wondered what all that “unequally yoked” stuff was about.

Someone planning to tattle?

866 posted on 05/06/2007 2:29:34 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Fred sez "I'm not interested in being the tallest midget in the room.." RUN FRED RUN!)
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To: Colofornian; xzins

I always thought that it was “through grace ~we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.”
I always thought that the supposed “most correct book on earth” (never mind that God, forbid, would ever start pitting one Scripture versus another like Joseph Smith did) said: “We are saved by grace AFTER all you can do.”

This kind of grace, then, would never kick in til you’ve done all you can do. Who qualifies? Point out ONE person besides Jesus Christ who can say He’s done everything He could do. (By our sins of omission alone, we all flunk)

****

Than why is there this verse in the Bible

Isa. 62
11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

Philip. 2
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


867 posted on 05/06/2007 2:30:05 PM PDT by restornu (Elevate Your Thoughts!)
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To: colorcountry; tantiboh
President Romney even as a...

I had to stop there, kind of swish it around my mouth like a wine tasting. Hmmm...neither bitter nor foul vintage like President Giuliani, not spoiled by age or inconsistency like a President McCain.

Okay, colorcountry, you've convinced me. I could live with that name next to the title. Admittedly, any name other than Clinton or Bush sounds kind of good. It's time for history to resume.

The initial post was to signify that indeed Romney was an informed, knowledgeable, ecclisiastical LEADER. He isn’t just a participant, who blushes at the embarrassing aspects of Mormonism as George W. Bush suggested.

He really doesn't give the impression of being a super-Mormon or holding ulterior motives as you seem to suggest.

I don’t care how many of you want to tag-team me...

I wasn't aware we had tag-teamed you. Not my intent. This is political. If any of these Mormons made any improper ecumenical suggestions toward me, arms would be brandished and gunfire would likely follow. I am a Calvinistic Baptist after all. Our tendencies in this regard are well-known.

This is not ecumenizing. It is politics.

Are you trying to suggest Romney doesn’t understand Mormonism? Because that is what my post was addressing.

Romney is reported to be a truly voracious reader with a truly curious mind. I would be rather surprised if he hasn't consumed a half-dozen or more systematic theology texts on the major orthodox Christian denominations.

I think he knows what he believes and why. I think he knows what we believe and why. I think a man like him is pretty practical, maybe utilitarian, in his approach to religion. What I've seen of him reminds me of many practical men I know in this approach toward religion.

At any rate, I take the position of Spurgeon when asked what we Baptists were to do about proselytizing the Catholics and the Protestants. He said that we'd worry about them when we'd preached the Gospel to all those who had never heard it before.

It's still good advice. Governor Romney has virtually the same King James Bible I do. He can choose what to make of it and respond to God's calling and the teaching of His Spirit, the same as the rest of us. He is responsible to it, like any of us.

And that is good enough. Barring any clear agenda by him to promote Mormonism in office (not something he did as governor), his religion is not a factor in whether I will ultimately support him.

It is his reliability on adhering to and implementing the conservative party platform that is the standard. He has neither passed that test fully nor failed it yet. He is an attractive candidate and his merits as a candidate warrant a fair hearing.
868 posted on 05/06/2007 2:31:59 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Election Math For Dummies: GOP ÷ Rudi = Hillary)
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To: greyfoxx39; restornu

My husband knows all about my posting on FreeRepublic. He knows how I feel about the Church. He has been inactive for longer than I have been....I guess we are pretty equally yolked...(get it..yolked - that’s a joke son)

I haven’t told him I resigned, but I will just as soon as I received official notification.

I got my letter back from Greg Dodge at Church headquarters. It said my resignation needed to take place on a local level and he has forwarded my request to my Stake President. I don’t know how long that will take.

Don’t they realize that as soon as they received my letter, I was no longer a member....end of story. At least that’s what the law has determined. The LDS Church no longer should have any association with me at all. I hope they truly honor my request.


869 posted on 05/06/2007 2:34:14 PM PDT by colorcountry (“It is wrong to criticize the leaders of the church even if the criticism is true” ~Dallin H. Oaks)
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To: George W. Bush

I didn’t mean to suggest it was you who tagged-teamed me. I received several responses directed at what Mormons considered misquotes by me concerning Romney and his OFFICE of Stake President, and the Melchezedek Priesthood he holds.

They were trying to obsfucate in my opinion, with several of them responding to a non-issue.

You, good Baptist that you are, are entirely entitled to your opinion. If you choose to support Romney it is between you and God in the voting booth....I really don’t get to have any say now do I?


870 posted on 05/06/2007 2:39:21 PM PDT by colorcountry (“It is wrong to criticize the leaders of the church even if the criticism is true” ~Dallin H. Oaks)
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To: tantiboh; xzins
Bush is a Methodist. Has he done anything in his public life to help the Methodist denomination? I don’t think so. He doesn’t inject Methodism into his public life, though he does pray for guidance in his actions.

Ah, but there is one small advantage to having a Mormon president for SLC. When you send your missionaries overseas and they ask you what a Mormon is or who is a Mormon, you would be able to point at the U.S. president, the most powerful individual in the world and the most famous international figure globally.

Not that we Baptists are worried. But we do observe your missions activity, a natural given our own historic focus on missions. You are no doubt aware how we move into an area quite often after Mormon missionaries have been there.

Well, we Baptists are never afraid of any fight over scripture. Given we have nothing else to offer, we have little choice anyway.

I just thought I'd point out the one benefit that a Romney presidency might bring to Salt Lake's proselytization efforts, particularly overseas.

The advantage is quite minor. I doubt the Methodists have benefited much from Bush. I don't think it has made much difference to us Baptists to have had the names Carter and Clinton to bandy about (and those two were an embarassment to us domestically anyway). Still, it probably doesn't hurt. Well, unless your president happens to start bombing their country.
871 posted on 05/06/2007 2:48:15 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Election Math For Dummies: GOP ÷ Rudi = Hillary)
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To: restornu
Well, it's about time someone explained that one to you, Resty, so you don't continue posting it in error to support your works for salvation based religion:

Philip. 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (KJV)

Philip. 2:122:12 So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out, 13 for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure. (Young's Literal Translation from the Greek) Notice the context: 'work out' can also be 'show forth'. You Mormon Apologists seem to think this 'show forth' means you have to do it because Jesus won't kick in His Grace until you've made Him owe it to you through your works of 'righteousness' ... which works are of course as filthy rags when done to earn His Righteousness offered to you as a gift through faith. As the Philippians would have 'shown forth' the evidence of their salvation in Paul's presence, he urges them to 'show forth' the evidence of their salvation in his absence, 'lest any man (or restornu) be found boasting'. As the 13th verese shows, it is God in them doing the work for His own good pleasure. If you study the scriptures in their context, you avoid many doctrinal or canon errors.

872 posted on 05/06/2007 3:00:32 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: DelphiUser; greyfoxx39; sevenbak

777 the lucky post (Hah!) was supposed to be to the two of you, but I blew it, and only posted to my self.

I didn’t think either of you was going to answer with out this post, am I Right?


873 posted on 05/06/2007 3:04:25 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: greyfoxx39; tantiboh
This is a good place to ask a mormon what he thinks is the general mormon reaction to the PBS documentary? I saw parts of it, but not all, and it seemed to present some facts that the average mormon may not have been aware of. Care to elaborate?

For my part yawn...

It didn't really say anything I did not already know, and missed a lot that I did about every topic. I am propably not your average Joe Mormon.

Hey, we should trademark that
874 posted on 05/06/2007 3:09:23 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: MHGinTN

don’t you believe in pargraphs?


875 posted on 05/06/2007 3:10:49 PM PDT by restornu (Elevate Your Thoughts!)
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To: colorcountry
If you choose to support Romney it is between you and God in the voting booth....I really don’t get to have any say now do I?

Of course not. Any attempt would likely be followed by gunfire. ; )

There is an old saw about the difference between Calvinists and Arminians (the two major theological strains of non-Catholics). It goes like this: A group of Roman bishops are standing about, entirely comfortable to be surrounded by a dozen Arminians with shotguns. But the approach of just one Calvinist with a slingshot makes them quake in fear.

You see, the Roman bishops know which one will shoot.

Although not well-known to the American public, it is widely understood by leading scholars around the world that America was founded by Calvinists. And it is true. It took an absolute belief in God's sovereignty over that of corrupt monarchs to shake off the hold of monarchism and to establish the first republic since the classic Greek era.

I thought I'd offer a few words of explanation so you grasp the context of my response. The SBC has a significant but discreet undercurrent of Calvinism as do conservative Presbyterians, among others.
876 posted on 05/06/2007 3:10:57 PM PDT by George W. Bush (Election Math For Dummies: GOP ÷ Rudi = Hillary)
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To: restornu
Because you've been kind enough to change font colors for my old eyes, I'll try to do better on paragraphing next time.: )
877 posted on 05/06/2007 3:15:10 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Saundra Duffy

Sorry. I’ve been to many different churches and never heard a peep about Mormons.


878 posted on 05/06/2007 3:21:15 PM PDT by Scotsman will be Free (11C - Indirect fire, infantry - High angle hell - We will bring you, FIRE)
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To: DelphiUser

Use it for your tagline.


879 posted on 05/06/2007 3:36:12 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Fred sez "I'm not interested in being the tallest midget in the room.." RUN FRED RUN!)
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To: greyfoxx39
Aren't you one of the posters that complain about others reading your minds?

Yes, because people try to tell me I am not a Christian, while I am saying I am.

How do you know what Mitt or the prophet would do in this case?

I know because Mitt is a reasonable person. If he did such a thing in his first term, he’d be so toast running for the second. If he did such a thing in his second his legacy would be sealed.

I do not believe the prophet would call with anything more than he would do with any other president.

You do know that after Bill Clinton signed the “family act” president Hinckley called him to congratulate him and he rescinded it a few days later, right?

Yes, I believe that Mitt would be unduly influenced to sign a bill by a call from the prophet.

If for a moment we assume you are right, what bill would the prophet use this on-time shot on, remember, it would have to already be passed in the house and senate. If Mitt signed some extra constitutional executive order, he would be impeached so fast it would not matter.

The state church comment is ridiculous and you know it.

Yes, that is why I was saying please tell me you do not believe this.

The oath states "for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.

Is it Christian belief that God wishes to "build up His kingdom on earth and establish Zion?" State your source for this


How about Daniel 2:37-45: (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dan/2/37-45#37)
37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the airon, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
The kingdom of God will fill the whole earth and when that time comes I am pledged to dedicate all I have to it’s building, until then, I can help with Zion

A mormon would certainly be a better President than a democrat, I agree.

I have a hard time thinking of a worse president elect than Hitlery

I said:that you have the effect of temple covenants on a Mormon’s life all wrong.

In what way? Are you saying that they don't mean anything and are just a pro forma response?

Mormons who attend the temple are not some mind numbed robot; they are earnest seekers of God’s will. If you have someone who is a regular temple attendee, they will develop a relationship with God that can only enhance presidential performance.

That's certainly news to me. Remember I am a former mormon, coming from a mormon dominated area.

Just about any member could have told you that “the kingdom” is the kingdom spoken of by Daniel.
880 posted on 05/06/2007 4:04:45 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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