They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today

“I wouldn’t vote for a Mormon for dogcatcher, much less President of the United States!” There’s a lot of that kind of hateful rhetoric going around since Mitt Romney decided to throw his hat in the ring – as if Mormons are some kind of hideous evil monsters. The loudest anti-Mormon shouts, sad to say, are coming from America’s so-called “Christian right”. How can Mitt Romney hope to get a fair shake in this spiritually polluted atmosphere?

There was another man running for President who faced the same dilemma – John F. Kennedy – only he was the target of anti-CATHOLIC bigotry. In his 1960 speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, JFK said the following: “. . .I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end - where all men and all churches are treated as equal - where man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice - where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind - and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their words in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.” John F. Kennedy Library & Museum (Speeches, 1960). By the way, if you listen to the audio version of JFK’s speech, you will hear the hurt and frustration in his voice and the unfair treatment surely must have caused many a sleepless night.

Fast forward to 2007 where JFK might as well have been “whistlin’ Dixie”. The hostility toward Mormons today, in my opinion, is even worse than that suffered by JFK. Although it is said that JFK lost about a million votes to religious intolerance, Romney stands to lose even more if the anti-Mormon evangelicals hang together.

According to Media Matters for America - “. . . a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media” - FOX News is not reporting accurately on the level of evangelical hostility to the Romney run. Media Matters for America points out that among evangelical leaders rejecting Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson (National Day of Prayer and Focus on the Family, respectively), the Southern Baptist Convention (collectively), Pat Robertson (Christian Broadcasting Network), and Dr. D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida). “Among many conservative evangelicals – who comprise a significant part of the Republican base – Mormonism is considered an un-Christian cult.” Media Matters for America (2007)

While stumping in Florida, a man in the audience stood up during the Q&A portion and said the following to Romney: “You, sir, you’re a pretender. You do not know the Lord. You’re a Mormon.” Media Matters for America (2007). This is the kind of un-American, disrespectful treatment Mitt Romney will apparently have to endure throughout the entire campaign – as if just being a Mormon is reason enough to open the floodgates for free flow of pent-up hatred and vindictiveness.

For the record, the Mormon bashers know full well that the official name of Romney’s church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” and the members should rightfully be called “members of the LDS Church” but the words “Mormon” and “Mormonism” have an aura of negativity so they prefer to use the “M” word as if it were dirty.

Less than five minutes cruising around the official LDS website (LDS.org) will show anyone who’s interested that the Church is a Christian organization, with Jesus Christ at the Head. There are no paid clergy – all are volunteers. Humanitarian aid is legendary. Members of the LDS Church believe in strong family values; they are patriotic, they are law-abiding upstanding citizens of their community. Many LDS young men right out of high school go on two-year missions – you know, the guys on bikes – and during their mission they don’t date, read newspapers, go to movies or watch TV; but rather they dedicate two years of their lives to serving others. Many women go on missions as well, and couples, only theirs is 18 months in length but the obligations are basically the same. Most members do not shop or go out to eat on Sundays – reminiscent of the good old days when shops and stores were closed in obedience to the Commandment, “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy”. If they can help it, LDS Church members do not work on Sundays, either, preferring to spend the day at church and with their families. Church members are encouraged to store up a year’s supply of food and water so they will be able to care for their families in the event of an emergency. The LDS Church believes in self-sufficiency and self-reliance but in the event of a financial hardship the Church distributes food and supplies through their welfare (Bishop’s Storehouse) program. Members of the LDS Church do not drink alcohol nor do they use illicit drugs; they do not drink coffee and tea. A Mormon in good standing, therefore, will not be found in a drunken stupor puking her guts out at 3 a.m. anywhere in the world. Furthermore, members of the church are encouraged to dress modestly, be polite and courteous. And members of the LDS Church are faithful tithe payers. Come on, people, what’s not to love?

So what on earth is their beef, the anti-Mormon zealots? Why is there such disdain for the LDS Church and its members? In Hugh Hewitt’s book, “Mormon in the White House?” he states his thesis that the fierce anti-Mormon sentiment among main-stream Christians stems from one or two or all three of the following factors (in order of importance):

3) “If there is a Mormon in the White House, Salt Lake City will call the shots, at least on the biggest issues.” Hewitt (2007, p. 221-227)

Hugh Hewitt has written an exquisite book about the Romney campaign and overcoming the “Mormon problem.” It’s a good read and I highly recommend it. Of the three problem points listed in the previous paragraph, Hewitt believes – unless some unforeseen blunder destroys his chances – none of the three is insurmountable for Mitt Romney. (Plus, he has the best hair.)

Well, I’m no Hugh Hewitt, not even close; he’s an icon on the conservative radio talk show circuit. Hewitt could talk circles around me (I’ve seen him in action in Sacramento); he’s brilliant; he’s well educated, well read, no doubt a genius, plus he’s kind of cute. I’m basically a “nobody” – an overweight grandma – but after having researched for this paper, I have come to a totally different conclusion as to why there is such in-your-face angst over Romney’s religion of choice: It’s all about money, power and control (in that order). I think they’re (the evangelical religious bigots, that is) scared half to death and are revving up their attacks, not to save souls, but to save their reputations (which if tarnished would lead to financial ruin).

As I said, all one must do is browse around the LDS official web site to see what the LDS Church believes and stands for. Any reasonable person would conclude that Mormons are not evil monsters at all. In fact, they are God fearing, Christ believing, Holy Ghost following people going about doing good. “You will know them by their fruit” and the LDS has plenty of fruit and they are willing to share.

Earlier, I stated that some high-powered ministries have publicly condemned Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson, the Southern Baptist Convention, Pat Robertson, and Dr. D. James Kennedy – just to name a few. There are hoards of others. Sunday after Sunday, preachers, evangelists, reverends and ministers from all Christian denominations pound the pulpit with anti-Mormon rhetoric. I heard the message loud clear when I was a Baptist and when I tiptoed through evangelical/Pentecostal territories. Was I ever miffed when I later learned for myself the Gospel truth about the LDS Church.

Just think about it, please. If Dr. D. James Kennedy, for example, who wrote the book, The Wolves Among Us, were to admit he’d been wrong in labeling the LDS Church a “cult” that leads unwary ignorant people astray (to hell), what would become of his multi-million-dollar ministry? Suffice it to say, there’s big money to be had by sale of books, tapes, CD’s, videos, and other anti-Mormon propaganda, not to mention speaking engagements and world-wide religious crusades. We’re talking trillions, all told. I realize the anti-Mormon aspect of these ministries is but a small portion of the business, but if the truth came out, that they had been using falsehoods about the LDS Church as a cash cow, their entire empires could tumble.

The ABC News program 20/20 aired on March 23, 2007, exposed the lavish lifestyles of some of the top evangelical preachers – million dollar mansions and personal jets. ABC News - 20/20 (2007) (Again, the LDS Church has no paid clergy.)

It’s nothing new. Severe harassment and persecution has been the lot of the LDS Church since it’s inception in 1820 when a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith saw visions and communed with heavenly beings. Rather than discuss the spiritual aspects of the LDS Church, however, let’s stick to facts of history. Taken from a college-level early American history textbook, Joseph Smith, upon experiencing the visions and visitations, believed “that God had work for me to do, and that my name should be for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 292). The textbook continues, “They were met with hostility virtually everywhere they went . . . . As the movement gathered momentum, hundreds of people joined the church; entire congregations of churches of other faiths joined . . .” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 293)

During the dark time of American history when slavery was flourishing and when Native Americans were forced from their lands, the pioneers of the LDS Church also suffered at the hands of unscrupulous politicians, governmental leaders, and angry hate-filled mobs. “In the face of relentless persecution, Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, had led his flock to Illinois. There they had established the town of Nauvoo, which by the mid-1840’s had become the largest city in Illinois with over 15,000 people. . . In June 1844, a mob of non-Mormons broke into the jail where Smith was being held and killed both him and his brother. . .The Mormons abandoned Nauvoo in the spring of 1846 as anti-Mormons pounded the town with cannon, destroying the Great Temple. In a well-coordinated migration, 15,000 Mormons moved in stages to the Great Salt Lake.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 334-335) Many walked all the way and many died along the way, including innocent babes.

Joseph Smith at one time was tarred and feathered by a mob. No jury, no trial, no judge – and they had planned to castrate him, too. On October 27, 1838, the then governor of Missouri issued an “extermination order”: “The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary . . .” Far West History (n.d.) Please note that the order called for exterminating “Mormons” making no distinction between men, women and children, and indeed women and children were subject to the extermination order.

In an event known in LDS history as “the Haun’s Mill Massacre”, precipitated by the extermination order, 30 to 40 LDS families were surprised by some 200 to 250 militia. After the smoke cleared, seventeen LDS people lay dead including a ten-year-old boy. Thirteen LDS members were wounded including a woman and a seven-year-old boy. “A few Missourians returned the next day and took plunder.” LDS FAQ (n.d.) No Missouri militiamen were killed but three were wounded. Just a few years earlier, the LDS folk who died that day had been members of other churches - Congregational or Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian.

In l976, Governor Bond of Missouri officially rescinded the extermination order and presented apologies for the “unfortunate developments” it caused. Quoting from Governor Bond’s Executive Order: “WHEREAS, Governor Boggs’ order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and . . . Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering rescind Executive Order Number 44 dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs. . .” Far West History (n.d.) The individuals who harassed, abused, and even murdered Mormons in cold blood were never tried for their crimes.

I read Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail and it really touched my heart. There he was, suffering for the Lord in jail, and these religious leaders with highfalutin titles on the outside wrote an open letter (“A Call for Unity”) in which they criticize King’s tactics and basically blame King for the racial turmoil of the time. Though you can tell King is upset and hurt by the attack – made worse because he’s stuck in jail and can’t confront the religious leaders face-to-face – his response is gentle genius. “I wish you had commended the Negro sit-inners and demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer, and their amazing discipline in the midst of great provocation. One day the South will recognize its real heroes.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 881)

King has a few choice words for the Church, too: “If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 880)

There’s an eerie commonality between what JFK and MLK endured at the hands of the religious bigots of their day and what Mitt Romney is facing today. I hope and pray that Romney will be able to fend off these undeserved attacks from the religious hypocrites with the same grace, dignity and God-inspired resolve displayed by the other two.

A few popular bumper stickers read: “Honk if you love Jesus” and “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” or “Jesus is my co-pilot”. Yet, apparently, these same bumper-sticker Christians are the ones waging war against Mitt Romney’s run for the Presidency solely on the basis of his chosen faith in a Church that bears the name of the Savior of the world.

ABC News - 20/20 (2007). Philanthropic donations come from your heart, but where do they end up? Ex-money manager says "enough!" to secretive Christian Ministry spending. Glenn Ruppel & John Stossel. United States: ABC News.

Ayers, E. L., Gould, L. L., Oshinsky, D. M., & Soderlund, J. R. (2004). American Passages - a history of the United States - Volume I: to 1877 (2nd ed.). Belmont, California: Thomson/Wadsworth.

Barnet, S., & Bedau, H. (2005). Letter from Birmingham Jail. Current Issues and Enduring Questions - a guide to critical thinking and argument, with readings (7th ed., pp. 867-882). Boston and New York: Bedford/St. Martin's.

Far West History. (n.d.). The Extermination Order and how it was rescinded. Retrieved April 28, 2007, from http://www.jwha.info/mmff/exorder.htm

Hewitt, H. (2007). A Mormon in the White House? 10 things every American should know about Mitt Romney. Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.

John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum. (1960, September 12). Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://www.jfklibrary.org

Lds Faq. (n.d.). What was the Haun's Mill Massacre? Retrieved April 28-2007, 2004, from Brigham Young University Web Site: http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=57

Media Matters for America. (2007). Fox News whitewashes evangelical hostility to Romney's faith. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200702280002

[[But we all agree on the core doctrines of the Christian religion, such as the nature of God, the means of salvation, who Jesus was, how the world was created, and the Bible as the only inspired scriptures.]]

“Interesting, I assume you are talking about the Trinity?”

I listed the nature of God (this would include the Trinity), the means of salvation, who Jesus was, how the world was created, and the Bible as the only inspired scriptures. If you were to look at the web site I posted a link to, you would find these and other points of doctrine addressed, with Bible references.

“If you believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that your salvation comes through him, and only him, you are Christian because that is what you believe. If you add spaceships and guitars, and tarot reading, as long as you believe in Jesus Christ as your God, you are a Christian.”

I strongly disagree with this, as do orthodox Christians in general. I respect your freedom to believe this, I am just making my opinion clear.

As to your question about why there are so many different churches: Why not? Is it any surprise that after 2000 years, the Church (The Body of Christ)—which is made up of human beings who have different personalities, opinions about peripheral issues, and preferences—would have some variety to it? Sure, people have had disagreements about things. And sure, there are some who are way out in left field. But we all agree on the core doctrines of Christianity, and that is what unites us. And maybe God likes variety? After all, look at his creation, all the different types of apples, and flowers, and fish, and birds!

I wouldn’t want all churches or denominations to be the same. We can all learn from and be challenged by our differences. Lutherans can learn from the free style of worship in Pentacostal churches. Pentacostals can learn from the structure and reverence of Catholic worship. Catholics can learn from the evangelistic emphasis of a Baptist church. We can all benefit from our differences. And we can all benefit from the challenge to be united despite our differences.

My family attends Lutheran churches. My husband’s parents attend a Christian and Missionary Alliance church. We ourselves have attended Christian and Missionary Alliance as well as Baptist churches. We have friends that attend a wide variety of churches, including Catholic. We do not argue amongst ourselves, although on a very rare occasion we have discussed peripheral issues in a friendly way. We all agree on the important things, so the differences are insignificant in our eyes.

I would venture to guess that Mormons would like there to be huge differences among the different denominations and churches, as that is really at the core of Joseph Smith’s first revelation, and it sounds like it is also at the core of the LDS missionary message. You are free to think what you will about orthodox Christians. But I as an orthodox Christian have shared my views on the topic.

Best regards!

Thanks for sharing your testimony, it was interesting to read!

You said that when the LDS missionaries visited you, you said you “can never be good enough to be a Mormon!” I find that really interesting. Did you feel that your salvation was dependent on being “good enough”? And why did you think that?

You also wrote:

“They put these little paper cups upside down on the postum table and they said these represent the other churches; they all have some of the truth. The Baptists believe in baptism by immersion (we believe that too); the Pentecostals believe in speaking in tongues (we believe that too so long as there’s an interpreter); the Catholics believe in the Priesthood coming from the original Apostles (we believe that too); some churches believe in evangelical outreach (we believe that too); some churches believe that Jesus Christ is divine (we believe that too); some churches believe the Holy Ghost was sent by Jesus as He promised (we believe that too); other churches believe in keeping the Sabbath day holy (we believe that too); some believe in paying a full tithe (we believe that too).”

Orthodox Christians also believe in evangelical outreach, that Jesus is divine, that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, and that the Sabbath Day is holy. Views on the priesthood, tongues, baptism, and tithing do differ among denominations and churches. Personally, as an evangelical Protestant, I agree with all the views you agree with above.

I think it’s interesting that the main focus of the missionaries, according to your testimony, was the differences in churches. I have been out “evangelizing” with Christians of different denominations and churches, and I have to say that our message never focused on churches. Although we came from different backgrounds, our message about forgiveness, eternal life, and a personal relationship with God was the same.

I’m glad to hear that you made it through your surgery, and that you were comforted in your time of need.

So what? I don't think God is going to hold sincere people accountable for doctrine that may or may not false. God is nicer than Christians are.

1. "You shall have no other gods before me."

Have you always put God first in your life? Jesus said to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength-- so much, that your love for your parents, brothers and sisters, friends, and even your own life is like hatred compared to your love and devotion for God. Have you ever failed to put Him first in your life?

2. "You shall not make for yourself any idol."

Who is God to you? Is he only a god of love and mercy who would never judge anyone and never cast anyone into Hell? If that's your god, then you're right. Your god couldn't cast anyone into Hell because he doesn't exist. He's a figment of your imagination. You've created a god in your own mind that you're more comfortable with. You may call it your "personal belief," but God calls it idolatry. It's the oldest sin in the Book, and the Bible warns that idolaters will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

3. "You shall not take the name of God in vain."

Have you ever used God's name as a curse word? If you have, you've taken the holy name of God-- who gave you your life, your family, and everything precious to you-- and used it as a filthy, four-letter word. Hitler's name wasn't even despised enough to be used as a curse word! If you have used God's holy name in that manner, you are a blasphemer and the Bible says "God will not hold him guiltless who takes the name of the Lord in vain."

4. "Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy."

God commands that we set aside one day in seven. Have you ever been guilty of breaking this Commandment?

5. "Honor your father and your mother."

Have you always honored your parents in a way that's pleasing in the sight of God? Ask Him to remind you of the sins of your youth. You may have forgotten them, but God hasn't.

6. "You shall not murder."

Jesus warned "Whoever is angry with his brother without cause, is in danger of judgment," (Matthew 5:22) and the Bible says, "He who hates his brother is a murderer," (1 John 3:15). God sees hatred in the heart to be as wicked as murder. We can violate His Law by attitude and intent.

7. "You shall not commit adultery."

Jesus warned,"You have heard...'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Have you ever looked at another person with lust? The Bible says that adulterers and fornicators (those who have had sex before marriage) will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

8. "You shall not steal."

Have you ever stolen anything (even if it was something small)? The value of the thing stolen doesn't matter; petty theft is still theft. Have you ever taken anything that belonged to someone else (from the office, school, parents, etc.)? If you have, that makes you a thief.

9. "You shall not lie."

Have you ever told a lie? Then you are a liar. How many murders do you have to commit to be a murderer? Just one. If you have told even one lie, that makes you a liar. The Bible warns that all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8). You may not think deceitfulness is a serious sin, but God does.

10. "You shall not covet."

This means we should never desire anything that belongs to another person. Not their house, nor their car, nor their money, nor their wife, nor their lifestyle, nor anything that belongs to our neighbor.

Who of us can say we are not guilty of breaking these Commandments?

This is what the Bible means when it says, "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God."

Can you see your predicament? You are guilty of sinning against God Himself, and, because you have a conscience, ("con"=with, "science"=knowledge) you have sinned "with knowledge."

Isn't it true that every time you lied, stole, or lusted, etc., you knew it was wrong?

Does the fact that you have sinned against God scare you? It should.

You have actually angered Him by your sin.

The Bible says His wrath abides on you, that you are an "enemy of God in your mind through wicked works."

Perhaps you think God is good and because of his goodness He will overlook your sins?

But if you knew of a human judge who turned a blind eye to the crimes of a guilty rapist... would you describe him as a "good" judge?

That would be a corrupt judge.

God could never be a corrupt judge.

He will punish all the rapists, murderers, and thieves... But He won't stop there. He will also punish all liars, the lustful, adulterers, idolaters, and blasphemers.

The place of eternal punishment is Hell.

God does not want you to perish. He is rich in mercy and compassion, and has provided a way for you to be forgiven. He has invited you to come to Him for a full pardon and receive the free gift of Eternal Life. You cannot earn it, and you do not deserve it, but God is offering it to you as proof of His love for you.

Imagine you are standing in front of a judge, guilty of multiple serious crimes. All the evidence has been presented and there is no doubt about your guilt. Your apologies and good works cannot erase your crimes; therefore you must be punished. The fine for your crime is $250,000 or imprisonment, but you don’t have two pennies to rub together. The judge is about to pass sentence when someone you don't even know steps in and pays your fine for you! The court accepts the money and declares that you are free to go. The law has been satisfied, your debt has been paid in full, and the stranger’s sacrifice was a demonstration of his love for you. That’s what God did for you 2000 years ago.

The Bible says that the God of the Universe became a man (Jesus Christ), and suffered and died on the cross for your sins and mine so that we could be set free. Then he rose again from the dead and defeated death! It's as simple as this—we broke the Law, and Jesus paid our fine.

"God demonstrated His own love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, being made a curse for us." (Galatians 3:13)

Do you see God’s great love for you? Do you see your need for His forgiveness? Do what He commands and “Repent…that your sins may be wiped out and times of refreshing may come from the Lord.” (Acts 3:19) You must turn away from sin and turn to God. Desire to have NOTHING to do with sin, and surrender your life to the One who can save you. Jesus died to set you free, and then he rose from death to be your Lord. Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” If you will confess and forsake your sins (repent) and trust in Jesus Christ as your Savior and Lord, God will forgive you and you’ll pass from death to life.

If you've decided to reject the gift of forgiveness and you die in your sins, there is no hope for you. There is no purgatory. The wrath of God abides on you and you will spend eternity in Hell.

This is the the may not be false in your statement above, and like you stated it may not be false.

Just something to ponder on.

BigMack

You said:all agree on the core doctrines of the Christian religion, such as the nature of God, the means of salvation, who Jesus was, how the world was created, and the Bible as the only inspired scriptures.]]

I replied: Interesting, I assume you are talking about the Trinity?R>

You said: I listed the nature of God (this would include the Trinity), the means of salvation, who Jesus was, how the world was created, and the Bible as the only inspired scriptures. If you were to look at the web site I posted a link to, you would find these and other points of doctrine addressed, with Bible references.

Uh huh, OK, here is the Mormon perspective A website that explains Mormonism, LDS.org. You sending me to a website like that when I asked you a question is as useful as me just pointing you to a website like LDS.org and telling you to get back to me when you are done. I went, looked at a couple of links and said, yep, the rest of the site is the same. I am NOT going to spend days searching a site to get an answer to a question I asked you. When I talked about the trinity, the first council at Nicea and Hippolytus, I give links directly to the article on the web site, When I quote scriptures, I include links to the exact scripture (usually highlighted). I do not link entire web sites and say “knock your self out”.

I spend lots of time researching my posts and providing links so that those I am trying to teach about what I believe will find it worthwhile to read my posts and follow my links to exactly what I am talking about. If you do not care enough about your posts to do more than post a link to a website I should search to find out “what you believe” than I will cease reading your posts.

I said: “If you believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that your salvation comes through him, and only him, you are Christian because that is what you believe. If you add spaceships and guitars, and tarot reading, as long as you believe in Jesus Christ as your God, you are a Christian.”

You said:I strongly disagree with this, as do orthodox Christians in general. I respect your freedom to believe this, I am just making my opinion clear.

Great!, “Orthodox Christians” I wold completely agree with you that sucha church was not orthodox, they also would not be Mormon Lol!

As to your question about why there are so many different churches: Why not? Is it any surprise that after 2000 years, the Church (The Body of Christ)—which is made up of human beings who have different personalities, opinions about peripheral issues, and preferences—would have some variety to it? Sure, people have had disagreements about things. And sure, there are some who are way out in left field. But we all agree on the core doctrines of Christianity, and that is what unites us. And maybe God likes variety? After all, look at his creation, all the different types of apples, and flowers, and fish, and birds!

God commanded his disciples to be “one” John 17 21&22he desires unity in his people because he said so.

I wouldn’t want all churches or denominations to be the same.

Wait just a minute! Isn’t that what you just said you wanted? Go reread your post; I’ll wait…

We can all learn from and be challenged by our differences. Lutherans can learn from the free style of worship in Pentacostal churches. Pentacostals can learn from the structure and reverence of Catholic worship. Catholics can learn from the evangelistic emphasis of a Baptist church. We can all benefit from our differences. And we can all benefit from the challenge to be united despite our differences.

So are Mormons too different for you to learn from?

My family attends Lutheran churches. My husband’s parents attend a Christian and Missionary Alliance church. We ourselves have attended Christian and Missionary Alliance as well as Baptist churches. We have friends that attend a wide variety of churches, including Catholic. We do not argue amongst ourselves, although on a very rare occasion we have discussed peripheral issues in a friendly way. We all agree on the important things, so the differences are insignificant in our eyes.

You keep telling me about “Core Beliefs” “Core Doctrines” and “The important things” I asked you a for a list and you sent me to a website you did not even write, nor link to a specific page, but a search page.

I don’t think you have a list, I think you make it up as you go along. I don’t think you can post me a list of your beliefs as the “Core Doctrin of Christianity.”

Prove me wrong, please.

I would venture to guess that Mormons would like there to be huge differences among the different denominations and churches, as that is really at the core of Joseph Smith’s first revelation, and it sounds like it is also at the core of the LDS missionary message.

The first vision’s message was very powerful and like many of gods messages to man it has many meanings. I will list just a few of the obvious messages in this Vision.

1. The trinity is a false doctrine. (because Joseph smith saw two personages who were distinct from each other.)
2. God had not closed the heavens.
3. The true church did not exist on the earth at that time.

Lets discuss the trinity for a moment, woudldn’t you agree that knowing god’s nature is important if you are to woship him? (John 17:3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

As Mormon I note that he did not say, “And this is life eternal, that they might know me the only true God”. Because he is talking about someone besides himself.

Mormons believe that one of the places that apostasy happened was the first council at Nicea which was convened to reconcile the Arian controversy (a belief that God and Christ were separate and that Christ was created before time started) and the now prevailing view that god and Christ were “of the same substance”. This disagreement with in the church became known as the Arian Controversy It is important to note that both sides of this disagreement never questioned the other’s right to call themselves “Christian”.

The trinity was the creation of a pagan emperor named Constantine, who called the frist council at Nicea and with a combination of bribes, and threats got the church to agree on a creed that all of Rome could unite behind. This was his expressed purpose according to records he had kept of the event.

Finally Constantine, having conquered Licinius and become sole emperor, concerned himself with the re-establishment of religious peace as well as of civil order. He addressed letters to St. Alexander and to Arius deprecating these heated controversies regarding questions of no practical importance, and advising the adversaries to agree without delay.

And

The emperor began by making the bishops understand that they had a greater and better business in hand than personal quarrels and interminable recriminations.

Hippolytus Eusebius called him the most important theologian of the pre-Constantinian era. He was reportedly the great grandson of John the beloved. He wrote a set of ten books called “refutation of all heresies”

One of the Books, Against one Noetus
Specifically refutes the idea that God and Christ are one being and calls it heresy.

Here is a piece from book X that I like to quote because as a summation, it contains most of the plan of salvation as taught by the LDS church.

“Such is the true doctrine in regard of the divine nature, O you men, Greeks and Barbarians, Chaldeans and Assyrians, Egyptians and Libyans, Indians and Ethiopians, Celts, and you Latins, who lead armies, and all you that inhabit Europe, and Asia, and Libya.6 And to you I am become an adviser, inasmuch as I am a disciple of the benevolent Logos, and hence humane, in order that you may hasten and by us may be taught who the true God is, and what is His well-ordered creation. Do not devote your attention to the fallacies of artificial discourses, nor the vain promises of plagiarizing heretics,6 but to the venerable simplicity of unassuming truth. And by means of this knowledge you shall escape the approaching threat of the fire of judgment, and the rayless scenery of gloomy Tartarus,6 where never shines a beam from the irradiating voice of the Word!

You shall escape the boiling flood of hell's6 eternal lake of fire and the eye ever fixed in menacing glare of fallen angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins; and you shall escape the worm that ceaselessly coils for food around the body whose scum6 has bred it. Now such (torments) as these shall you avoid by being instructed in a knowledge of the true God. And you shall possess an immortal body, even one placed beyond the possibility of corruption, just like the soul. And you shall receive the kingdom of heaven, you who, while you sojourned in this life, knew the Celestial King. And you shall be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For you have become God:7 for whatever sufferings you underwent while being a man, these He gave to you, because you were of mortal mould, but whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon you, because you have been deified, and begotten unto immortality.7 This constitutes the import of the proverb, "Know yourself; "i.e., discover God within yourself, for He has formed you after His own image. For with the knowledge of self is conjoined the being an object of God's knowledge, for you are called by the Deity Himself. Be not therefore inflamed, O you men, with enmity one towards another, nor hesitate to retrace7 with all speed your steps. For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings,7 rendering regenerate the old man. And God called man His likeness from the beginning, and has evinced in a figure His love towards you. And provided you obey His solemn injunctions, and becomest a faithful follower of Him who is good, you shall resemble Him, inasmuch as you shall have honour conferred upon you by Him. For the Deity, (by condescension,) does not diminish anything of the divinity of His divine7 perfection; having made you even God unto His glory!7”

So between the time that Hippolytus died in 236 and the Council at Nicea in 325 AD the view of the church swung from three entities acting as one God to one God made up of three manifestations. This is really not a HUGE change when you think about it, but it has many important ramifications.

You are free to think what you will about orthodox Christians. But I as an orthodox Christian have shared my views on the topic.

Great, I as a Mormon have also shared my views on the topic. I have spent over an hour putting together the links and quotations for this post and I hope you will at least do me the courtesy of looking at the links and thinking about what I said. I have not sent you to an index, but to actual documents on the Catholic site, online dictionaries that have IMHO the most complete listings for the topic, and the bible. None of this is “Joseph Smith” revelation; all of it is from sources outside the LDS church. I hope after reading this you will agree with me that the LDS church while un orthodox deserves the benefit of the doubt and is Christian.

Thank you, and my God be with you.

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