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They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today
Saundra Duffy

Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy

They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious bigotry, alive and well today

May 4, 2007 - by Saundra Duffy-Hawkins

“I wouldn’t vote for a Mormon for dogcatcher, much less President of the United States!” There’s a lot of that kind of hateful rhetoric going around since Mitt Romney decided to throw his hat in the ring – as if Mormons are some kind of hideous evil monsters. The loudest anti-Mormon shouts, sad to say, are coming from America’s so-called “Christian right”. How can Mitt Romney hope to get a fair shake in this spiritually polluted atmosphere?

There was another man running for President who faced the same dilemma – John F. Kennedy – only he was the target of anti-CATHOLIC bigotry. In his 1960 speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, JFK said the following: “. . .I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end - where all men and all churches are treated as equal - where man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice - where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind - and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their words in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.” John F. Kennedy Library & Museum (Speeches, 1960). By the way, if you listen to the audio version of JFK’s speech, you will hear the hurt and frustration in his voice and the unfair treatment surely must have caused many a sleepless night.

Fast forward to 2007 where JFK might as well have been “whistlin’ Dixie”. The hostility toward Mormons today, in my opinion, is even worse than that suffered by JFK. Although it is said that JFK lost about a million votes to religious intolerance, Romney stands to lose even more if the anti-Mormon evangelicals hang together.

According to Media Matters for America - “. . . a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media” - FOX News is not reporting accurately on the level of evangelical hostility to the Romney run. Media Matters for America points out that among evangelical leaders rejecting Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson (National Day of Prayer and Focus on the Family, respectively), the Southern Baptist Convention (collectively), Pat Robertson (Christian Broadcasting Network), and Dr. D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida). “Among many conservative evangelicals – who comprise a significant part of the Republican base – Mormonism is considered an un-Christian cult.” Media Matters for America (2007)

While stumping in Florida, a man in the audience stood up during the Q&A portion and said the following to Romney: “You, sir, you’re a pretender. You do not know the Lord. You’re a Mormon.” Media Matters for America (2007). This is the kind of un-American, disrespectful treatment Mitt Romney will apparently have to endure throughout the entire campaign – as if just being a Mormon is reason enough to open the floodgates for free flow of pent-up hatred and vindictiveness.

For the record, the Mormon bashers know full well that the official name of Romney’s church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” and the members should rightfully be called “members of the LDS Church” but the words “Mormon” and “Mormonism” have an aura of negativity so they prefer to use the “M” word as if it were dirty.

Less than five minutes cruising around the official LDS website (LDS.org) will show anyone who’s interested that the Church is a Christian organization, with Jesus Christ at the Head. There are no paid clergy – all are volunteers. Humanitarian aid is legendary. Members of the LDS Church believe in strong family values; they are patriotic, they are law-abiding upstanding citizens of their community. Many LDS young men right out of high school go on two-year missions – you know, the guys on bikes – and during their mission they don’t date, read newspapers, go to movies or watch TV; but rather they dedicate two years of their lives to serving others. Many women go on missions as well, and couples, only theirs is 18 months in length but the obligations are basically the same. Most members do not shop or go out to eat on Sundays – reminiscent of the good old days when shops and stores were closed in obedience to the Commandment, “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy”. If they can help it, LDS Church members do not work on Sundays, either, preferring to spend the day at church and with their families. Church members are encouraged to store up a year’s supply of food and water so they will be able to care for their families in the event of an emergency. The LDS Church believes in self-sufficiency and self-reliance but in the event of a financial hardship the Church distributes food and supplies through their welfare (Bishop’s Storehouse) program. Members of the LDS Church do not drink alcohol nor do they use illicit drugs; they do not drink coffee and tea. A Mormon in good standing, therefore, will not be found in a drunken stupor puking her guts out at 3 a.m. anywhere in the world. Furthermore, members of the church are encouraged to dress modestly, be polite and courteous. And members of the LDS Church are faithful tithe payers. Come on, people, what’s not to love?

So what on earth is their beef, the anti-Mormon zealots? Why is there such disdain for the LDS Church and its members? In Hugh Hewitt’s book, “Mormon in the White House?” he states his thesis that the fierce anti-Mormon sentiment among main-stream Christians stems from one or two or all three of the following factors (in order of importance):

1) “It is just too weird.

2) “A Mormon president will supercharge Mormons’ missionary work.

3) “If there is a Mormon in the White House, Salt Lake City will call the shots, at least on the biggest issues.” Hewitt (2007, p. 221-227)

Hugh Hewitt has written an exquisite book about the Romney campaign and overcoming the “Mormon problem.” It’s a good read and I highly recommend it. Of the three problem points listed in the previous paragraph, Hewitt believes – unless some unforeseen blunder destroys his chances – none of the three is insurmountable for Mitt Romney. (Plus, he has the best hair.)

Well, I’m no Hugh Hewitt, not even close; he’s an icon on the conservative radio talk show circuit. Hewitt could talk circles around me (I’ve seen him in action in Sacramento); he’s brilliant; he’s well educated, well read, no doubt a genius, plus he’s kind of cute. I’m basically a “nobody” – an overweight grandma – but after having researched for this paper, I have come to a totally different conclusion as to why there is such in-your-face angst over Romney’s religion of choice: It’s all about money, power and control (in that order). I think they’re (the evangelical religious bigots, that is) scared half to death and are revving up their attacks, not to save souls, but to save their reputations (which if tarnished would lead to financial ruin).

As I said, all one must do is browse around the LDS official web site to see what the LDS Church believes and stands for. Any reasonable person would conclude that Mormons are not evil monsters at all. In fact, they are God fearing, Christ believing, Holy Ghost following people going about doing good. “You will know them by their fruit” and the LDS has plenty of fruit and they are willing to share.

Earlier, I stated that some high-powered ministries have publicly condemned Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson, the Southern Baptist Convention, Pat Robertson, and Dr. D. James Kennedy – just to name a few. There are hoards of others. Sunday after Sunday, preachers, evangelists, reverends and ministers from all Christian denominations pound the pulpit with anti-Mormon rhetoric. I heard the message loud clear when I was a Baptist and when I tiptoed through evangelical/Pentecostal territories. Was I ever miffed when I later learned for myself the Gospel truth about the LDS Church.

Just think about it, please. If Dr. D. James Kennedy, for example, who wrote the book, The Wolves Among Us, were to admit he’d been wrong in labeling the LDS Church a “cult” that leads unwary ignorant people astray (to hell), what would become of his multi-million-dollar ministry? Suffice it to say, there’s big money to be had by sale of books, tapes, CD’s, videos, and other anti-Mormon propaganda, not to mention speaking engagements and world-wide religious crusades. We’re talking trillions, all told. I realize the anti-Mormon aspect of these ministries is but a small portion of the business, but if the truth came out, that they had been using falsehoods about the LDS Church as a cash cow, their entire empires could tumble.

The ABC News program 20/20 aired on March 23, 2007, exposed the lavish lifestyles of some of the top evangelical preachers – million dollar mansions and personal jets. ABC News - 20/20 (2007) (Again, the LDS Church has no paid clergy.)

It’s nothing new. Severe harassment and persecution has been the lot of the LDS Church since it’s inception in 1820 when a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith saw visions and communed with heavenly beings. Rather than discuss the spiritual aspects of the LDS Church, however, let’s stick to facts of history. Taken from a college-level early American history textbook, Joseph Smith, upon experiencing the visions and visitations, believed “that God had work for me to do, and that my name should be for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 292). The textbook continues, “They were met with hostility virtually everywhere they went . . . . As the movement gathered momentum, hundreds of people joined the church; entire congregations of churches of other faiths joined . . .” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 293)

During the dark time of American history when slavery was flourishing and when Native Americans were forced from their lands, the pioneers of the LDS Church also suffered at the hands of unscrupulous politicians, governmental leaders, and angry hate-filled mobs. “In the face of relentless persecution, Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, had led his flock to Illinois. There they had established the town of Nauvoo, which by the mid-1840’s had become the largest city in Illinois with over 15,000 people. . . In June 1844, a mob of non-Mormons broke into the jail where Smith was being held and killed both him and his brother. . .The Mormons abandoned Nauvoo in the spring of 1846 as anti-Mormons pounded the town with cannon, destroying the Great Temple. In a well-coordinated migration, 15,000 Mormons moved in stages to the Great Salt Lake.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 334-335) Many walked all the way and many died along the way, including innocent babes.

Joseph Smith at one time was tarred and feathered by a mob. No jury, no trial, no judge – and they had planned to castrate him, too. On October 27, 1838, the then governor of Missouri issued an “extermination order”: “The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary . . .” Far West History (n.d.) Please note that the order called for exterminating “Mormons” making no distinction between men, women and children, and indeed women and children were subject to the extermination order.

In an event known in LDS history as “the Haun’s Mill Massacre”, precipitated by the extermination order, 30 to 40 LDS families were surprised by some 200 to 250 militia. After the smoke cleared, seventeen LDS people lay dead including a ten-year-old boy. Thirteen LDS members were wounded including a woman and a seven-year-old boy. “A few Missourians returned the next day and took plunder.” LDS FAQ (n.d.) No Missouri militiamen were killed but three were wounded. Just a few years earlier, the LDS folk who died that day had been members of other churches - Congregational or Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian.

In l976, Governor Bond of Missouri officially rescinded the extermination order and presented apologies for the “unfortunate developments” it caused. Quoting from Governor Bond’s Executive Order: “WHEREAS, Governor Boggs’ order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and . . . Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering rescind Executive Order Number 44 dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs. . .” Far West History (n.d.) The individuals who harassed, abused, and even murdered Mormons in cold blood were never tried for their crimes.

I read Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail and it really touched my heart. There he was, suffering for the Lord in jail, and these religious leaders with highfalutin titles on the outside wrote an open letter (“A Call for Unity”) in which they criticize King’s tactics and basically blame King for the racial turmoil of the time. Though you can tell King is upset and hurt by the attack – made worse because he’s stuck in jail and can’t confront the religious leaders face-to-face – his response is gentle genius. “I wish you had commended the Negro sit-inners and demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer, and their amazing discipline in the midst of great provocation. One day the South will recognize its real heroes.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 881)

King has a few choice words for the Church, too: “If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 880)

King signs off with “Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood”.

There’s an eerie commonality between what JFK and MLK endured at the hands of the religious bigots of their day and what Mitt Romney is facing today. I hope and pray that Romney will be able to fend off these undeserved attacks from the religious hypocrites with the same grace, dignity and God-inspired resolve displayed by the other two.

A few popular bumper stickers read: “Honk if you love Jesus” and “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” or “Jesus is my co-pilot”. Yet, apparently, these same bumper-sticker Christians are the ones waging war against Mitt Romney’s run for the Presidency solely on the basis of his chosen faith in a Church that bears the name of the Savior of the world.

References

ABC News - 20/20 (2007). Philanthropic donations come from your heart, but where do they end up? Ex-money manager says "enough!" to secretive Christian Ministry spending. Glenn Ruppel & John Stossel. United States: ABC News.

Ayers, E. L., Gould, L. L., Oshinsky, D. M., & Soderlund, J. R. (2004). American Passages - a history of the United States - Volume I: to 1877 (2nd ed.). Belmont, California: Thomson/Wadsworth.

Barnet, S., & Bedau, H. (2005). Letter from Birmingham Jail. Current Issues and Enduring Questions - a guide to critical thinking and argument, with readings (7th ed., pp. 867-882). Boston and New York: Bedford/St. Martin's.

Far West History. (n.d.). The Extermination Order and how it was rescinded. Retrieved April 28, 2007, from http://www.jwha.info/mmff/exorder.htm

Hewitt, H. (2007). A Mormon in the White House? 10 things every American should know about Mitt Romney. Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.

John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum. (1960, September 12). Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://www.jfklibrary.org

Lds Faq. (n.d.). What was the Haun's Mill Massacre? Retrieved April 28-2007, 2004, from Brigham Young University Web Site: http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=57

Media Matters for America. (2007). Fox News whitewashes evangelical hostility to Romney's faith. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200702280002


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: boggsforgovernor; cuespookymusic; election; lds; mormon; mormons; romney; whitesalamanderblues
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To: Abigail Adams

“I am curious, do Mormons read the Bible often, either in worship, study groups, or for personal edification?”

Good question. We study it frequently; it stands side-by-side with the other scriptures.

I am a Sunday school teacher. Last year, we studied the Old Testament. This year, we’re studying the New Testament. Last week, we spoke at length about the Parable of the Unmerciful Servant.

The Book of Mormon is no -replacement- to the Bible. It is a -companion- to the Bible.


2,241 posted on 05/11/2007 5:18:23 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: MHGinTN; DelphiUser

This is twice in one day you have quoted a poster without pinging him.

Do be polite.


2,242 posted on 05/11/2007 5:20:02 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: tantiboh; Jim Robinson

I make it a practice to choose to whom I ping. I don’t abide smartaleck baiters. A rude, ridiculing, mischaracterizing, condescending, arrogant poster is due no courtesy in my book. If Jim Robinson wants me to do what you suggest, he can tell me to do so, but until then I will freely drag and paste quotes from posts as I choose.


2,243 posted on 05/11/2007 5:28:12 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: tantiboh

There is a difference between a Muslim learning the truth about Christ and rejecting it, and a Muslim who has never learned about Christ.

It is the rejection of Christ, the turning away from the faith, a resolve to ignore the gospel that God finds unacceptable.

A Muslim who learns the truth about Christ and believes it, will no longer be a Muslim. He will be a Christian. Having the opportunity to learn of God’s all-encompassing love, this Muslim would have no choice but to believe on faith. It is this conversion that makes God rejoice.


2,244 posted on 05/11/2007 5:39:16 PM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (Life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all.--William Goldman)
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To: tantiboh

You can’t have it both ways.

Romney, an adherent to Mormonism, which believes it is the ONLY faith, believes that ONLY MORMONS receive heavenly awards.

So, anyone who doesn’t believe in Mormonism, ISN’T going to enter into the grace of God. They will be rejected as unworthy. A rejection from God ONLY leads to one place... the alternative.

To deny what the alternative is denies the Bible. The Bible clearly states, if you don’t accept God, you’ve chosen the devil. It’s as plain as day.

THE DEMOCRATS ARE NOT LOSING CREDIBILITY.

In 2006, the Democrats won overwhelmingly and Pelosi has her chair and of course Reid has the Senate majority seat. That in itself does not bode well for the next election.

No Democratic incumbent was defeated in 2006 and not one Democratic-held open seat was lost, in either the U.S. Senate, U.S. House, or with regards to any governorship. The Democrats now hold the majority of Governorships in the nation.

In 2004, it came down to the state of Ohio, and was closer than most ever anticipated.

In 2000 it came to a hair’s breath.

Now, to think that the Democrats are losing credibility is foolhardy. They play HARDBALL... something the Republicans are hesitant to do. The more the Democrats do this, the more traction they gain.

The next election will be fought tooth and nail. I hope you will be prepared when the time comes. Now is not the time to sit idly by on the sidelines. At this juncture, the race for the Executive, Legislature and Judicial Branches are not rudimentary exercises. What is needed is the spirit and the will to pull out all of the stops. It is time to fight for the soul of the nation.


2,245 posted on 05/11/2007 5:54:13 PM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (Life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all.--William Goldman)
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To: colorcountry
Hilarious that a Jewish/Indian used the word “Christ” so often, since Christ is the Greek title for Savior, and wan’t even in existence until Jesus Christs time. Andyet you claim this 2 Nephi was written when??

Color, as a former member you should know this, perhaps your so ingrained in the opposition sites so much you have forgotten. ;-)

Jesus Christ's name was known among the Nephites because they were Gods people, of the house of Israel (tribe of Joseph) and had been specifically told and shown His day. It was translated into English within the last 2 centuries, not 2000 years ago.

2,246 posted on 05/11/2007 6:00:25 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: Don Carlos
On the other hand, "Yo Mitt, 'member me your cousin Don Carlos?"

You may know my neighbor. I won't give his name, but he wrote Mitt's biography after the Olympics, his middle name is Mitt and he is a nephew to Gov. Romney.

2,247 posted on 05/11/2007 6:05:31 PM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: colorcountry
When Al Sharpton told Paula Zahn that blacks weren’t allowed the priesthood until 1978, she told him that cnn’s researchers claim that it was actually 1965. ???

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/05/09/romney.sharpton.ap/index.html

Perhaps the Church didn’t give CNN that information. I wonder where they got it? Do you have any idea?

So now you are passing on media reports without looking for substantiation? Surely you know better. I work in the media, and even I know better!

Osama gets his news from CNN too.

2,248 posted on 05/11/2007 6:11:30 PM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: FastCoyote
Perhaps we should.
Tell me all you know about the biblical Urim and Thummin, here’s some references to help you start.


Lev. 8:8 also he put in the breastplate the Urim and the Thummim.
Ex. 28: 30 put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim.
Num. 27: 21 ask counsel for him after the judgment of Urim.
Deut. 33: 8 Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one.
1 Sam. 28: 6 Lord answered him not, neither by . . . Urim, nor by prophets.
Ezra 2: 63 (Neh. 7: 65) stood up a priest with Urim and with Thummim.
Rev. 2: 17 (D&C 130: 10) white stone, and in the stone a new name.

2,249 posted on 05/11/2007 6:14:28 PM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

We agree; but what will happen to the Muslim who never gets the opportunity? There have been many.


2,250 posted on 05/11/2007 6:22:13 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

“The next election will be fought tooth and nail. I hope you will be prepared when the time comes. Now is not the time to sit idly by on the sidelines. At this juncture, the race for the Executive, Legislature and Judicial Branches are not rudimentary exercises. What is needed is the spirit and the will to pull out all of the stops. It is time to fight for the soul of the nation.”

I agree; and I entirely agree that Republicans have been timid. I think that has been a major factor in the elections. Essentially, the conservative base fired the Republicans. I’m still convinced that we hold a significant majority.


2,251 posted on 05/11/2007 6:24:34 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: Abigail Adams
I agree about the fruits. I think we can also test the spirits by whether or not what they say is consistent with the Bible. And I think spiritual discernment and our intellect can also be used.

Well said. I would only add that one should make God central to any such quest. .. and in so doing, be willing to accept his will as his spirit wispers to us. Trying to decipher truth without the Holy Ghost is problematic.

Neh. 9: 20 Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them.

John 5: 32 (Acts 5: 32) there is another that beareth witness of me.

John 15: 26 when the Comforter is come . . . he shall testify of me.

Acts 2: 37 (Acts 2: 41) they were pricked in their heart.

1 Cor. 2: 11 things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Cor. 12: 3 no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

2,252 posted on 05/11/2007 6:25:24 PM PDT by sevenbak (After the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers... Acts 24:14)
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To: Colofornian

I don’t think it’s kosher to dredge up junk about another person’s faith, out of context, for the purpose of trying to hurt another person’s walk with the Lord. For one thing, it won’t work.


2,253 posted on 05/11/2007 6:25:24 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy ( Mitt has the best hair!)
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To: tantiboh

There are people around the planet that never have learned of Christ... His life and His work on the cross. I think of Asia or the Middle East in particular. In China Christianity is growing rapidly... and yet, having such a large population, it truly hasn’t spread deep enough.

The people who never hear of Christ, generally tend to believe in “something”. If this is a version of God that they have a relationship with, I believe He offers it protection and the ability to grow in depth. God wouldn’t cast an uneducated person aside and damn them from disbelief... a disbelief of something they had never had an inkling of.

I firmly believe that God takes each and every human being from the place where they stand and works in their lives. He is charitable and loving towards those who commune with Him. He will lead those to a greater understanding of His nature.


2,254 posted on 05/11/2007 6:27:36 PM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (Life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all.--William Goldman)
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To: Colofornian

In my article, I forgot to mention (when I listed all the good atributes of the LDS Church) - I forgot to list the availability of the LDS Family History Centers around the world where anyone is welcome to research their family tree/heritage for free - no string attached. Millions of people have been able to use these resources to complete their family trees.

Many African Americans have been able to trace their ancestry back to plantations and some can trace back further to the slave ship trade. I have read about many successful endeavors in this regard.

It is a wonderful service that the Church provides and I am very proud to mention it here.


2,255 posted on 05/11/2007 6:32:17 PM PDT by Saundra Duffy ( Mitt has the best hair!)
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

“The people who never hear of Christ, generally tend to believe in “something”. If this is a version of God that they have a relationship with, I believe He offers it protection and the ability to grow in depth. God wouldn’t cast an uneducated person aside and damn them from disbelief... a disbelief of something they had never had an inkling of.

I firmly believe that God takes each and every human being from the place where they stand and works in their lives. He is charitable and loving towards those who commune with Him. He will lead those to a greater understanding of His nature.”

I agree; indeed, here are the words of mine that started this small discussion between us:

“We believe that the Celestial Kingdom - what you refer to as “heaven” - is attainable to EVERYBODY who follows Christ as best as they know how. Be that person Mormon, Orthodox Christian, Muslim, or pagan Bushman.

God judges us according to the desires of our hearts, not the knowledge of our minds.”

I’m glad we could find common ground on this point.


2,256 posted on 05/11/2007 6:33:50 PM PDT by tantiboh
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To: tantiboh

Common ground may be rare, but it is appreciated. :)


2,257 posted on 05/11/2007 6:39:20 PM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (Life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all.--William Goldman)
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To: tantiboh

Again... how can you follow Christ and be a Muslim?

Christ is the Savior.

Muslims believe He was a prophet.

BOTH sentences cannot be true. Because of that, the Muslim belief is false... and only the Christian belief can be true.

If Islam is therefore false, and you add to it Mormonism... you are effectively adding false belief to your faith system. How do you reconcile that? Doesn’t false belief in Allah run contradictory to Mormonism? Where in the BOM or other Mormon works did Smith say Allah is Great?


2,258 posted on 05/11/2007 6:45:14 PM PDT by Pan_Yans Wife (Life isn't fair. It's just fairer than death, that's all.--William Goldman)
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To: Colofornian; MHGinTN
I said:IF we believed that, then it might be a problem, but since we don’t, it isn’t. I thought we had agreed not to tell people what they believe…

You said:OK. It's "correction" time on my assumptions. Please correct my following assumptions, since you indicate they are in error (open invite to set me straight):

Very well, I accept (princess bride :)

My assumptions are based on the following:
Assumption (a) The Heavenly Father of the LDS has a body of flesh & bones as he was born of physical parentage;


Really simplified, but really really close too.

(b) Either his parents were gods (of which there is a line of authority) [See Mormon Doctrine, p. 516: "This doctrine that there is a mother in heaven was affirmed in plainess by the First Presidency of the Church...when...they said..'that all men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother'"]...Note: since many LDS use "image" of Genesis to assign divinity to humanity, I suppose we can infer that when an LDS apostle talks about "similitude" re: Heavenly Father to his parentage, that they, too, were divine.

There is a patriarchal order, of which if and when you become a God you would be part of. But (and it’s a big but too) that has nothing to do with God’s authority over you as a creation of his.

I had a friend who had a company, in the company his wife was a VP and a Director (as in board of). She had a disagreement with another VP about how he was running his department. He in essence told her to go jump in a lake (politely of course) she got really mad and said “I am a Director, you WILL listen to me!” He responded, the Board only has power when it takes a vote and instructs the CEO and the CEO will give me direction. Outside the Boardroom you are a VP, just like me. She asked the CEO (her husband) to come in and said “Do you know what he just said to me?” He responded I hope it was what I told him to say when you pulled the Director bit again. The next board meeting is in one week, we will discuss it then.

He had a rocky marriage for a week.

In the board meeting, she was outvoted 11 to 1, it took a while, but eventually she acccepted it.

You are confusing God the father’s authority. As “Father”, with his authority as “Creator”

It all boils down to perspective, you have to have the right perspective or Mormon teachings will be gobbledygook to you. The eternal nature of things for example, Eternal does not always mean the same thing in the scriptures. Eternal is one of God’s names so an eternal covenant (Like Moses’ covenant) was with God, not supposed to be forever, Jesus when he fulfilled it really messed up the Jews who understood it to mean forever. David was told he would suffer eternal punishment, and then later was promised that God would not leave his soul in hell. Sounds contradictory, but if eternal punishment is “God’s punishment” then no problem. Many of the “Problems you are citing here are problems only from your perspective, not mine, and not God’s.

{snip of redundant verbiage}

OR the god Heavenly Father was/is subject to was of a previous generation of men or gods (in which a line of authority also existed).

(c)The fact that we know there's a "family" of gods out there is that Joseph Smith freely talked about a "divine council" of gods...referenced it in D&C 121 + the LDS Book of Abraham talks about gods counseling "among themselves" (chptr 5)


Again, this is a perspective problem, not a knowledge one.

“God called the Council of Gods” could also be read “God called a council of his children” or the “King of Spirits called a council of all the spirits”, I got more for this…

God the Father called the council and we as future Gods (as children of a God) were in attendance. This is the Council where Jesus was selected as Savior by God and Satan tried to usurp his calling by taking away our right to choose. This is the Council where We were all told all about our callings and the dangers we would face here on earth Temptations, flaws, everything. God laid out the plan for the universe and we as his children under Jesus would be working on creating the universe. This was where the war in heaven spoken of by John the beloved started and Satan was cast out. This was that council and you were there too.

With such a "council of gods" we know that councils and forming worlds (as is the discussion of the book of Abraham) are done with order (vs. random or chaos). Therefore, order implies authority. Design implies Designer. Some Designer had either final or original authority--even if you say it was "collectively" done.

God the Father had all the original authority he needed to create us, the universe (spiritually and physically) and start the plan of salvation with Adam and Eve. As well as carry the plan of salvation to completion. God the father is self contained he did not start the building process until all the material, manpower and whatever Gods use to create a universe with was there.

So, simply put, an orginal god or a council of gods authorized the progression of others to join them as either a "greater council" or gods, or to progress from man to god. [Either way, it was "authorized"]

Now you are going off the path here. God the father authorized it. This is his universe; he needs no permission from anyone.

So, please set me staight. I am simply and utterly confused how a church that puts so much absolute emphasis on priesthood authority can somehow look up at the heavenlies, and say that "lines" of authority don't exist beyond our god(s), even tho we know he wasn't the original one.

I really am trying to set you straight here, honest

It’s all in the perspective.

God is the creator of all we can see, or detect with our scientific instruments, every star, every Galaxy, everything. He is in absolute authority over his creations as he should be.

God is also our Father, he is part of a great family (as you have alluded, but he has not told us much about it because as mortals we can’t understand much and we don’t need to know. Besides, when we die and cross over to the other side of the veil we will remember it all anyway because we already knew.) An earth like ours is an eternity tested method for giving your children a body so that they can become like you, Gods.

I read a book called Citizen of the galaxy, in it the protagonist Thorby, is on a ship “Joining a free trader family” (this is extremely rare) the family is run by both a corporation and a family which are the same people. In this book you have some interesting conversations and they explain that the title you use to address someone, determines the context of the conversation. If you have a man and his younger brother where the man is captian/CEO and the younger brother is the engineer, the captain can say engineer, do X. The engineer might say, Brother, I don’t think that is a good idea. The captain may say Do it anyway, engineer, and he will say OK and do it. If he had said Captain, I don’t think that’s a good idea, he would have been in the brig.

Different hats, just like the difference when we address god, or Father.

Sometimes with Mormon Doctrine you have to look at who is being addressed how, it’s tricky, but very rewarding once you “Get it”

All of the different names for God are all the different perspectives that we would have to understand to comprehend Him. (and we don’t know them all either)

I hope I did not blow your mind, but this is what I believe, and Jesus Christ is my savior and the only hope I have of progression to become like my Lord, My God, My Father.
2,259 posted on 05/11/2007 6:48:34 PM PDT by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Pan_Yans Wife

When you follow Christian teachings, are you not following Christ? When you are charitable toward your fellowman; when you serve others; when you are humble; when you are generous, are you not following His example? Does one have to be Christian to follow His teachings?

To the extent that one does, one is blessed with the rewards of doing so; that is a universal blessing, without regard to faith or creed.


2,260 posted on 05/11/2007 6:50:55 PM PDT by tantiboh
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