They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today

Saundra Duffy

[Saundra Duffy]

They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious bigotry, alive and well today

May 4, 2007 - by Saundra Duffy-Hawkins

“I wouldn’t vote for a Mormon for dogcatcher, much less President of the United States!” There’s a lot of that kind of hateful rhetoric going around since Mitt Romney decided to throw his hat in the ring – as if Mormons are some kind of hideous evil monsters. The loudest anti-Mormon shouts, sad to say, are coming from America’s so-called “Christian right”. How can Mitt Romney hope to get a fair shake in this spiritually polluted atmosphere?

There was another man running for President who faced the same dilemma – John F. Kennedy – only he was the target of anti-CATHOLIC bigotry. In his 1960 speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, JFK said the following: “. . .I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end - where all men and all churches are treated as equal - where man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice - where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind - and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their words in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.” John F. Kennedy Library & Museum (Speeches, 1960). By the way, if you listen to the audio version of JFK’s speech, you will hear the hurt and frustration in his voice and the unfair treatment surely must have caused many a sleepless night.

Fast forward to 2007 where JFK might as well have been “whistlin’ Dixie”. The hostility toward Mormons today, in my opinion, is even worse than that suffered by JFK. Although it is said that JFK lost about a million votes to religious intolerance, Romney stands to lose even more if the anti-Mormon evangelicals hang together.

According to Media Matters for America - “. . . a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media” - FOX News is not reporting accurately on the level of evangelical hostility to the Romney run. Media Matters for America points out that among evangelical leaders rejecting Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson (National Day of Prayer and Focus on the Family, respectively), the Southern Baptist Convention (collectively), Pat Robertson (Christian Broadcasting Network), and Dr. D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida). “Among many conservative evangelicals – who comprise a significant part of the Republican base – Mormonism is considered an un-Christian cult.” Media Matters for America (2007)

While stumping in Florida, a man in the audience stood up during the Q&A portion and said the following to Romney: “You, sir, you’re a pretender. You do not know the Lord. You’re a Mormon.” Media Matters for America (2007). This is the kind of un-American, disrespectful treatment Mitt Romney will apparently have to endure throughout the entire campaign – as if just being a Mormon is reason enough to open the floodgates for free flow of pent-up hatred and vindictiveness.

For the record, the Mormon bashers know full well that the official name of Romney’s church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” and the members should rightfully be called “members of the LDS Church” but the words “Mormon” and “Mormonism” have an aura of negativity so they prefer to use the “M” word as if it were dirty.

Less than five minutes cruising around the official LDS website (LDS.org) will show anyone who’s interested that the Church is a Christian organization, with Jesus Christ at the Head. There are no paid clergy – all are volunteers. Humanitarian aid is legendary. Members of the LDS Church believe in strong family values; they are patriotic, they are law-abiding upstanding citizens of their community. Many LDS young men right out of high school go on two-year missions – you know, the guys on bikes – and during their mission they don’t date, read newspapers, go to movies or watch TV; but rather they dedicate two years of their lives to serving others. Many women go on missions as well, and couples, only theirs is 18 months in length but the obligations are basically the same. Most members do not shop or go out to eat on Sundays – reminiscent of the good old days when shops and stores were closed in obedience to the Commandment, “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy”. If they can help it, LDS Church members do not work on Sundays, either, preferring to spend the day at church and with their families. Church members are encouraged to store up a year’s supply of food and water so they will be able to care for their families in the event of an emergency. The LDS Church believes in self-sufficiency and self-reliance but in the event of a financial hardship the Church distributes food and supplies through their welfare (Bishop’s Storehouse) program. Members of the LDS Church do not drink alcohol nor do they use illicit drugs; they do not drink coffee and tea. A Mormon in good standing, therefore, will not be found in a drunken stupor puking her guts out at 3 a.m. anywhere in the world. Furthermore, members of the church are encouraged to dress modestly, be polite and courteous. And members of the LDS Church are faithful tithe payers. Come on, people, what’s not to love?

So what on earth is their beef, the anti-Mormon zealots? Why is there such disdain for the LDS Church and its members? In Hugh Hewitt’s book, “Mormon in the White House?” he states his thesis that the fierce anti-Mormon sentiment among main-stream Christians stems from one or two or all three of the following factors (in order of importance):

1) “It is just too weird.

2) “A Mormon president will supercharge Mormons’ missionary work.

3) “If there is a Mormon in the White House, Salt Lake City will call the shots, at least on the biggest issues.” Hewitt (2007, p. 221-227)

Hugh Hewitt has written an exquisite book about the Romney campaign and overcoming the “Mormon problem.” It’s a good read and I highly recommend it. Of the three problem points listed in the previous paragraph, Hewitt believes – unless some unforeseen blunder destroys his chances – none of the three is insurmountable for Mitt Romney. (Plus, he has the best hair.)

Well, I’m no Hugh Hewitt, not even close; he’s an icon on the conservative radio talk show circuit. Hewitt could talk circles around me (I’ve seen him in action in Sacramento); he’s brilliant; he’s well educated, well read, no doubt a genius, plus he’s kind of cute. I’m basically a “nobody” – an overweight grandma – but after having researched for this paper, I have come to a totally different conclusion as to why there is such in-your-face angst over Romney’s religion of choice: It’s all about money, power and control (in that order). I think they’re (the evangelical religious bigots, that is) scared half to death and are revving up their attacks, not to save souls, but to save their reputations (which if tarnished would lead to financial ruin).

As I said, all one must do is browse around the LDS official web site to see what the LDS Church believes and stands for. Any reasonable person would conclude that Mormons are not evil monsters at all. In fact, they are God fearing, Christ believing, Holy Ghost following people going about doing good. “You will know them by their fruit” and the LDS has plenty of fruit and they are willing to share.

Earlier, I stated that some high-powered ministries have publicly condemned Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson, the Southern Baptist Convention, Pat Robertson, and Dr. D. James Kennedy – just to name a few. There are hoards of others. Sunday after Sunday, preachers, evangelists, reverends and ministers from all Christian denominations pound the pulpit with anti-Mormon rhetoric. I heard the message loud clear when I was a Baptist and when I tiptoed through evangelical/Pentecostal territories. Was I ever miffed when I later learned for myself the Gospel truth about the LDS Church.

Just think about it, please. If Dr. D. James Kennedy, for example, who wrote the book, The Wolves Among Us, were to admit he’d been wrong in labeling the LDS Church a “cult” that leads unwary ignorant people astray (to hell), what would become of his multi-million-dollar ministry? Suffice it to say, there’s big money to be had by sale of books, tapes, CD’s, videos, and other anti-Mormon propaganda, not to mention speaking engagements and world-wide religious crusades. We’re talking trillions, all told. I realize the anti-Mormon aspect of these ministries is but a small portion of the business, but if the truth came out, that they had been using falsehoods about the LDS Church as a cash cow, their entire empires could tumble.

The ABC News program 20/20 aired on March 23, 2007, exposed the lavish lifestyles of some of the top evangelical preachers – million dollar mansions and personal jets. ABC News - 20/20 (2007) (Again, the LDS Church has no paid clergy.)

It’s nothing new. Severe harassment and persecution has been the lot of the LDS Church since it’s inception in 1820 when a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith saw visions and communed with heavenly beings. Rather than discuss the spiritual aspects of the LDS Church, however, let’s stick to facts of history. Taken from a college-level early American history textbook, Joseph Smith, upon experiencing the visions and visitations, believed “that God had work for me to do, and that my name should be for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 292). The textbook continues, “They were met with hostility virtually everywhere they went . . . . As the movement gathered momentum, hundreds of people joined the church; entire congregations of churches of other faiths joined . . .” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 293)

During the dark time of American history when slavery was flourishing and when Native Americans were forced from their lands, the pioneers of the LDS Church also suffered at the hands of unscrupulous politicians, governmental leaders, and angry hate-filled mobs. “In the face of relentless persecution, Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, had led his flock to Illinois. There they had established the town of Nauvoo, which by the mid-1840’s had become the largest city in Illinois with over 15,000 people. . . In June 1844, a mob of non-Mormons broke into the jail where Smith was being held and killed both him and his brother. . .The Mormons abandoned Nauvoo in the spring of 1846 as anti-Mormons pounded the town with cannon, destroying the Great Temple. In a well-coordinated migration, 15,000 Mormons moved in stages to the Great Salt Lake.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 334-335) Many walked all the way and many died along the way, including innocent babes.

Joseph Smith at one time was tarred and feathered by a mob. No jury, no trial, no judge – and they had planned to castrate him, too. On October 27, 1838, the then governor of Missouri issued an “extermination order”: “The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary . . .” Far West History (n.d.) Please note that the order called for exterminating “Mormons” making no distinction between men, women and children, and indeed women and children were subject to the extermination order.

In an event known in LDS history as “the Haun’s Mill Massacre”, precipitated by the extermination order, 30 to 40 LDS families were surprised by some 200 to 250 militia. After the smoke cleared, seventeen LDS people lay dead including a ten-year-old boy. Thirteen LDS members were wounded including a woman and a seven-year-old boy. “A few Missourians returned the next day and took plunder.” LDS FAQ (n.d.) No Missouri militiamen were killed but three were wounded. Just a few years earlier, the LDS folk who died that day had been members of other churches - Congregational or Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian.

In l976, Governor Bond of Missouri officially rescinded the extermination order and presented apologies for the “unfortunate developments” it caused. Quoting from Governor Bond’s Executive Order: “WHEREAS, Governor Boggs’ order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and . . . Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering rescind Executive Order Number 44 dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs. . .” Far West History (n.d.) The individuals who harassed, abused, and even murdered Mormons in cold blood were never tried for their crimes.

I read Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail and it really touched my heart. There he was, suffering for the Lord in jail, and these religious leaders with highfalutin titles on the outside wrote an open letter (“A Call for Unity”) in which they criticize King’s tactics and basically blame King for the racial turmoil of the time. Though you can tell King is upset and hurt by the attack – made worse because he’s stuck in jail and can’t confront the religious leaders face-to-face – his response is gentle genius. “I wish you had commended the Negro sit-inners and demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer, and their amazing discipline in the midst of great provocation. One day the South will recognize its real heroes.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 881)

King has a few choice words for the Church, too: “If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 880)

King signs off with “Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood”.

There’s an eerie commonality between what JFK and MLK endured at the hands of the religious bigots of their day and what Mitt Romney is facing today. I hope and pray that Romney will be able to fend off these undeserved attacks from the religious hypocrites with the same grace, dignity and God-inspired resolve displayed by the other two.

A few popular bumper stickers read: “Honk if you love Jesus” and “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” or “Jesus is my co-pilot”. Yet, apparently, these same bumper-sticker Christians are the ones waging war against Mitt Romney’s run for the Presidency solely on the basis of his chosen faith in a Church that bears the name of the Savior of the world.

References

ABC News - 20/20 (2007). Philanthropic donations come from your heart, but where do they end up? Ex-money manager says "enough!" to secretive Christian Ministry spending. Glenn Ruppel & John Stossel. United States: ABC News.

Ayers, E. L., Gould, L. L., Oshinsky, D. M., & Soderlund, J. R. (2004). American Passages - a history of the United States - Volume I: to 1877 (2nd ed.). Belmont, California: Thomson/Wadsworth.

Barnet, S., & Bedau, H. (2005). Letter from Birmingham Jail. Current Issues and Enduring Questions - a guide to critical thinking and argument, with readings (7th ed., pp. 867-882). Boston and New York: Bedford/St. Martin's.

Far West History. (n.d.). The Extermination Order and how it was rescinded. Retrieved April 28, 2007, from http://www.jwha.info/mmff/exorder.htm

Hewitt, H. (2007). A Mormon in the White House? 10 things every American should know about Mitt Romney. Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.

John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum. (1960, September 12). Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://www.jfklibrary.org

Lds Faq. (n.d.). What was the Haun's Mill Massacre? Retrieved April 28-2007, 2004, from Brigham Young University Web Site: http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=57

Media Matters for America. (2007). Fox News whitewashes evangelical hostility to Romney's faith. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200702280002

[MHGinTN]

Sure they can, it’s the hallmark of Mormonism definition of God, a pyramid scheme. Satanic (and might even be the deceit Lucifer used to take a third of heaven with him in his fall from Grace), but a pyramid scheme.

[Colofornian]

The Bible was compiled by councils of men who decided what was going to be considered cannon of their church...

Faulty history lesson that was taught you. If you go back in history, you will see that what is now the NT was being cited verbally and what is written by the early Church (pre-Catholic era). These citations were deemed authoritative by church leaders.

What does that prove?

Let me place this into a modern illustration: Let's say that across America, I am a professor of psychology. Let's say that across America, psych professors left and right spout some major field research-based doctrine from certain sources; and that you find this on just about every campus psych dept (same authoritative sources for what they teach).

Now if some psych professional asso. finally comes along, having recognized this pattern, and gives it some official footing/status as the new standard for licensed folks everywhere, all it's done is to affirm and confirm what is already standard fare on college campuses. Even if you could point to some smaller group of association wonks who incorporated this newly formulated statement, and date it for me, you're missing the point about what has already been authoritatively taught at both the grassroots (& up)! Now if I tell you that this campus doctrine has been well-established (and not uprooted or replaced) for 300+ years!!! Well, that would be even more amazing that something has been that stable as a staple.

So stop spouting off such nonsense. You can effectively put together the NT from all kinds of pre-council sources multiple times over. Why? Because being closer to the original sources, they could generationally trust what weight was given to these sources.

Here's a parable:

Imagine the year is 2150. Fundamentalist break-off groups of Mormonism; internal conflict leading to new Mormon sects; Evangelical wingnuts from FReeperland; + just plain ole secularism is taking its toll on the LDS church. It leads to the forthcoming LDS prophet to call for a new Special General Conference to reiterate what general authorities of old have recognized for years: That the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the D&C, and the PoGP are LDS standard works and should be followed as the Word of God.

Fast-forward then to the era between 3650-3800. One of the more zealous break-off groups of Mormonism has been contending to be the "Real restoration" church--even tho the LDS prophets have labeled them to be "counterfeit." One of the many arguments used by this "Even Later Latter-day" group is that back in 2150 when the LDS prophet called for a Special General Conference in Salt Lake City, well "we all know" that one of the people involved in providing hospitality and civil leadership of the conference was a certain Mayor of Salt Lake City who was a gentile. As such, "we all know" how much "pagan" influence "Gentiles" could wield upon Zion.

Moreover, the abundance of more formalized confirmations of the Standard Works written prior to 2150 have disappeared and can't be located.

And so the "Even Later Latter-day Saints" then continually take aim upon the 2150 Special General Conference statement--to the full exclusion of anything said less formally prior to that by leaders everywhere.

You know the 300+ years between the authorship of many of the NT books (which are authoritatively cited by LDS authorities to this day; which are authoritatively distributed by SLC even in meda ads today, etc) and the councils that Mormons love to hate is a long time for informal recognition to already be well-established. (Think of it; we're only 177 years beyond the BoM)

[restornu]

You right I like Orrin but in the “presidental run” I voted for GWB!

[Abigail Adams]

Help yourself:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html

There are some documents “with scripture proofs” included.

[DelphiUser]

Thank you for replying even though you were very busy today. You certainly aren’t obligated to reply if you don’t want to, no worries.

Thank you, FR can be very time consuming, and I do have to eat (grin)

I am afraid I am going about this backwards, I went to your last post first and am now working backwards on posts to me, I apologize if this creates any confusion, but I did not know there was more than one post.

I have been using the word “religion” because that is what Christianity is. Sure, there are different denominations and churches within Christianity, but we all have the fundamental doctrines of Christianity in common.

In my earlier response to your later post (grin) I asked for a list of these since I am not aware of such a list being part of scripture.

Let me speak a little more to that. There are doctrines of Christianity that are fundamental, as in non-negotiable. Then outside of those core doctrines, there are differences among churches and denominations about issues that are outside of this core. For example, some denominations believe speaking in tongues is welcome in the worship service, while others believe it should be for private worship only, while still others believe it is not a spiritual gift for today at all. There is room within Christianity for some diversity on these non-core issues. But we all agree on the core doctrines of the Christian religion, such as the nature of God, the means of salvation, who Jesus was, how the world was created, and the Bible as the only inspired scriptures.

Interesting, I assume you are talking about the Trinity?

The trinity is a creation of Man. The council at nice which was not convened until 325 AD and was called by Constantine was a political conference where he told the bishops to come to an agreement that was acceptable to the Roman Empire. Added to the death sentence that was at that time over all Christians, he offered to make Christianity legal and the state church, and that is how you get the Roman Catholic Church. if you don’t believe me.

You should also do some research on the Arian Controversy as it was the group that opposed the homoousion of the “Godhead” (which is in the Bible) into the “Trinity” (which is not in the Bible anywhere). I could go on with early church leaders that believed God and Jesus to have separate essences, bodies and even in the deification of man. But this suffices for now my point that they were considered Christian, why must I believe something that is not in the Bible in order to be a Christian?

Tell me if I am wrong, but I have the impression that the differences between Christian churches is one of the big problems that Mormons have with Christianity. Is this true? Is it not at the heart of the revelation that Joseph Smith supposedly received? And do Mormons consider themselves another “Christian church” or denomination?

You are wrong (grin, stop asking that! It’s too fun!) but not for the reasons you think I might think you are wrong. Mormons are indeed another Christian Church; however, we are not a protestant church. We are not protestant in that we did not originate in the doctrinal fight known as the “Reformation”

The doctrines of the Reformation can be summarized as

a) The rejection of papal authority
b) Rejection of some fundamental Roman Catholic doctrines
c) The priesthood of all believers
d) The primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truth
e) The belief in justification by faith alone

As to who “owns” the word Christian, it is orthodox Christians. That seems like a funny question to me.

I realized it would be. A “Funny” question because you never imagined that you might not be considered a Christian by someone else, you assumed ownership of the word without questioning how you got to “own” it.

Orthodox Christians can own Orthodox for they created it. Jesus Christ “created” Christianity, so he owns it. You are not him.

Who owns the word Mormon? And who gets to determine who is Mormon and who is just someone using the name without accepting the core doctrines of Mormonism? We are back to my already-posted points.

The LDS church does not own the word Mormon, or no one would be allowed to use it in anti Mormon literature (grin). As for controlling membership, well we are a church with a structure and a defining set of doctrines, not a faith.

Of course you are winding up back at your already posted points, grin that is common when presented with the opportunity to see another perspective. It is common to “run home” and pretend that other reality does not exist. However, your acceptance or the lack thereof of reality does not change reality itself.

I don’t assume I am in the group called Christianity. I know I am part of the group. I accept and acknowledge all of the core Christian doctrines.

Of course you think that. You are so accustomed to the air that you breathe that you only notice when it is missing or tainted. You assume your membership so completely that my even mentioning it seems strange to you. You talk about these “Doctrines of Christianity”, do you know what they are? Can you list all of them? Can you tell me how they got there? Doctrine which is another word for Dogma both reference the other when explaining themselves. Both are man made constructs to clarify beliefs. However, to deny me the right to worship Jesus without being in agreement with your consensus (for that is what orthodoxy means) makes no sense.

That seems pretty simple to me. Just like Mormons know they are Mormon because they accept and acknowledge the doctrines of the LDS. Right?

There are many who accept and acknowledge the doctrines of the LDS church who are not Mormons. As a Missionary, it was very frustrating to watch someone learn, grow and develop a testimony, only to have them tell you a parent, girlfriend, chemical addiction was something they could not give up for Jesus. They would often tearfully testify that the church was true, and then confess that they were under condemnation for not following what they knew. Often they would continue to attend services, but they were essentially dammed (their progression had stopped) until they would decide that Jesus was more important than something worldly that was holding them back.

So no, not everyone who accepts and believes is a Mormon. There are also many who no longer believe but for similar reasons do not follow their heart and resign their membership in the church. It’s just not that simple

All Christians are not Christians because they believe in Jesus Christ.

Actually, they are.

They are Christians because they believe in all of the core doctrines of Christianity.

That makes them Orthodox Christians.

There are lots of people and groups who could claim to believe in Jesus, but like I said before, if they believe he came to earth in a space ship and believe salvation comes through good singing, then they are not Christian.

If you believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that your salvation comes through him, and only him, you are Christian because that is what you believe. If you add spaceships and guitars, and tarot reading, as long as you believe in Jesus Christ as your God, you are a Christian. As soon as you say there is no God, or that your God is something or someone else, you are that religion. It is a matter of logic and English, that if someone claims a belief in Jesus Christ, they are Christians. The may be unorthodox, fine, they may accept things that you don’t, books that you don’t, prophets that you don’t, but they believe in Jesus Christ, so they are Christian.

If you tell someone I am not a Christian, you are telling them I do not believe in Jesus Christ. That is strictly not true. Any thing that is not true is false and knowingly telling a falsehood is well… not Christian. If you do not believe that we are, you are entitled to your opinion, but to state without any qualification is to tell something hat just isn’t true.

To be continued...

I hope so!

[Pan_Yans Wife]

that God’s wisdom is higher than man’s; and that God continues to speak to His children.

In reading the New Testament, you will find that this belief is grounded in Christianity. God speaks to me. God doesn't need a prophet to speak to me. He answers my prayers ALWAYS.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

If he receives the nomination and Bible-believing Christians learn the truth about his faith system, they will be alarmed.

But, I also keep this in mind. Non-Christians do not like being told they are damned. No one would like to hear that only Muslims go to heaven, for example.

So, the unbelievers may look askance at his “holier than thou” attitude and grow disdainful about Romney. They may say to themselves, “This is a man who received prominence in his faith system, and he believes I’m damned. I don’t LIKE him.” It’s that simple.

[DelphiUser]

Good question. If the beliefs of lds gods are not different, then why are there so many of them?

CF, this has been so debunked as to be ridiculous for you to bring up for the how many times does this make?

If there's a supposed "central authority" in the LDS church, then why is there no "Central Authority" within the "council of gods." Why is there no buck stops here god? Why is there no ultimate god? You cannot have "central authority" unless those folks who derive their authority know where that ultimate authority comes from? (You can't just endlessly climb the divine bureaucratic ladder; you eventually have to arrive at a destination--an original source of authority).

In order from your irrelevant question:

A “why is there no Central Authority"

God the Father is your ultimate God, he has all the authority you will ever answer to and you need not concern yourself with variables that are out of your scope (a little programmer jargon here)

B “Why is there no buck stops here God?”

He is God the father.

C “You cannot have "central authority" unless those folks who derive their authority know where that ultimate authority comes from?”

God created you, that is where his authority comes from.

D “You can't just endlessly climb the divine bureaucratic ladder; you eventually have to arrive at a destination--an original source of authority”

Authority comes from God the father.
Does you neighbor having kids threaten your authority over your children?
Does your father have authority over your kids unless you give it to him?
Did you ever go “Over your dad’s head“ to your grandpa to try to avoid a punishment from your dad?
How did that work out for you?

All you are showing here is you do not understand what you are talking about. You have tried to jump from Algebra to Trig, and you are not ready for the answers, that is why you will not accept them.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Christians do not believe that Muslims will go to be with God.

Islam is an evil cult. There is no richness of God’s love in it. It is a system of rules and hatred that is intent on controlling its congregants and using them to further the evil of Islam. Muslims are called to kill those who do not believe in Allah. Allah is NOT another name for God. Belief in Allah is worshipping the devil.

Mohammed was sly and deceitful when he invented this system by co-opting Adam, Abraham, Jesus... they are all considered PROPHETS of Islam.

Islam does not recognize Jesus as God’s Son. If you do NOT accept Jesus as God’s Son and Savior, you are NOT saved by God. It is only through the blood of Christ that Christians are redeemed and can live with the Lord in Heaven.

If Mormonism believes that ANY path other than that through Christ can lead man to God, then it is patently FALSE. God is VERY specific about why faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation.

[FastCoyote]

[“This is a man who received prominence in his faith system, and he believes I’m damned. I don’t LIKE him.” It’s that simple.]

Yes it is that simple, but the mess it will create in the Republican party will be unbelievable. Romney will always be viewed as a Trojan Horse.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

I find it hard to believe a thread on FR is the cause of all the rise in hits.

It is more likely that discerning Americans are visiting the site, wanting to learn the truth about Mormonism and Romney before they decide to cast their vote for him.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

The Mormon Church is salivating at the prospect of a Mormon in the WH. Just think of the free publicity it would give to the Mormons.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

This has been often repeated, but perhaps you missed it.

Would you vote for a Muslim? WHY NOT?

[DelphiUser]

I said: The Bible was compiled by councils of men who decided what was going to be considered cannon of their church...

CF said:Faulty history lesson that was taught you. If you go back in history, you will see that what is now the NT was being cited verbally and what is written by the early Church (pre-Catholic era). These citations were deemed authoritative by church leaders.

What does that prove?

Nothing!

The books I specifically quoted were also quoted in the NT. Jesus calling himself "The Son of Man" is specifically referring to a prophecy from the book of Enoch which the Catholic Church did not want in the bible, because it talks too much about God and Jesus being separate beings.

If you are going to post at least research and reference.

[Colofornian]

Does your father have authority over your kids unless you give it to him?

As Jesus told a certain civil leader, "You wouldn't have authority over you unless it was given to you from above."

Likewise, no father has any inherent authority. It is derived from our Father above.

For the Christian who says there was no God before Heavenly Father (Isaiah 43), that is satisfactory.

For the Mormon who believes that Heavenly Father received his authority from a previous God, it's a problem.

So I simply quote Jesus' line of argument and apply it according to the principle of regression--tracing authority to its original source: "You, earthly father, would have no authority unless it was given to you from above." "You, Heavenly Father of this earth, would have no authority unless it was given to you from above." "You, Father-god of Heavenly Father of this earth, would have no authority unless it was given to you from above." "You, Grand-god of Heavenly Father of this earth, would have no authority unless it was given to you from above."

Now with an ultimate God somewhere, in computer language the above would go on forever. Mathematically, it's called infinite regression. You cannot proceed infinitely on authority that receeds into impersonal infinity.

[Colofornian]

God created you, that is where his authority comes from.

You simply beg the question. I ask where the buck stops here God is, and you cite the "creator" issue.

That's like my Mom (everybody remember their Mom this weekend!) responding to me, "Mom, where'd ya get your authority (to discipline me)." Now she might not have, once upon a time, put up with discipline avoidance techniques if that question was posed prior to imposition of discipline.

But if I'm having an adult convo w/her years after the fact; and if we're having a discussion about the "philosophy of discipline," then she would need to answer me in a transparent manner. She can't just say (like you said in effect) and beg the question. She can't just say: "I procreated you, and that is where my authority came from."

Because while on the surface that's true, that kind of authority could lead to her thinking: "I procreated him, and I can 'unprocreate' via abortion or whatever after birth." No parent has absolute authority in such a way if they are subject to another higher power.

[DelphiUser]

Help yourself:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html

There are some documents “with scripture proofs” included.

I went, and I saw a website with the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

I saw doctrines created by specific churches that have no authority beyond that church. Some of these decrees are accepted by other churches, but that does not mean that these man made tenets of their church should apply to me for I am not in their church.

I saw nothing that required anyone to believe a specific doctrine to be a Christian. Do you have more?

[Abigail Adams]

I will address your posts soon, but I am busy this weekend with a family get-together. Thanks for your replies.

[Abigail Adams]

In regards to the historic church documents, maybe try taking off your “but there are so many churches and all the doctrines are created by man” glasses. :-) The other place I can point you to is the Bible. I am curious, do Mormons read the Bible often, either in worship, study groups, or for personal edification?

[Colofornian]

God doesn't need a prophet to speak to me. He answers my prayers.

Agreed.

"In the past" [in the Hebrew, "past" means "past"], God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days [as in latter days he has spoken to us by his Son..." (Heb. 1:1-2)

LDS, it won't do you any good to try an "end run" around this Hebrews passage by saying that, "Of course God speaks thru His son (thru His LDS prophet)..." because writer of Hebrews' exact point is to contrast the two, and not blend the two.

Jesus IS a Living Prophet. He still speaks. He is not silent. He has not delegated His Role as Prophet. And there is none other who is Head of the Church, whether it be a human-structured HQ in Rome, or in SLC.