Thank you for replying even though you were very busy today. You certainly aren’t obligated to reply if you don’t want to, no worries.
Thank you, FR can be very time consuming, and I do have to eat (grin)
I am afraid I am going about this backwards, I went to your last post first and am now working backwards on posts to me, I apologize if this creates any confusion, but I did not know there was more than one post.
I have been using the word “religion” because that is what Christianity is. Sure, there are different denominations and churches within Christianity, but we all have the fundamental doctrines of Christianity in common.
In my earlier response to your later post (grin) I asked for a list of these since I am not aware of such a list being part of scripture.
Let me speak a little more to that. There are doctrines of Christianity that are fundamental, as in non-negotiable. Then outside of those core doctrines, there are differences among churches and denominations about issues that are outside of this core. For example, some denominations believe speaking in tongues is welcome in the worship service, while others believe it should be for private worship only, while still others believe it is not a spiritual gift for today at all. There is room within Christianity for some diversity on these non-core issues. But we all agree on the core doctrines of the Christian religion, such as the nature of God, the means of salvation, who Jesus was, how the world was created, and the Bible as the only inspired scriptures.
Interesting, I assume you are talking about the Trinity?
The trinity is a creation of Man. The council at nice which was not convened until 325 AD and was called by Constantine was a political conference where he told the bishops to come to an agreement that was acceptable to the Roman Empire. Added to the death sentence that was at that time over all Christians, he offered to make Christianity legal and the state church, and that is how you get the Roman Catholic Church.
if you don’t believe me.
You should also do some research on the Arian Controversy as it was the group that opposed the homoousion of the “Godhead” (which is in the Bible) into the “Trinity” (which is not in the Bible anywhere). I could go on with early church leaders that believed God and Jesus to have separate essences, bodies and even in the deification of man. But this suffices for now my point that they were considered Christian, why must I believe something that is not in the Bible in order to be a Christian?
Tell me if I am wrong, but I have the impression that the differences between Christian churches is one of the big problems that Mormons have with Christianity. Is this true? Is it not at the heart of the revelation that Joseph Smith supposedly received? And do Mormons consider themselves another “Christian church” or denomination?
You are wrong (grin, stop asking that! It’s too fun!) but not for the reasons you think I might think you are wrong. Mormons are indeed another Christian Church; however, we are not a
protestant church. We are not protestant in that we did not originate in the doctrinal fight known as the “Reformation”
The doctrines of the Reformation can be summarized as
a) The rejection of papal authority
b) Rejection of some fundamental Roman Catholic doctrines
c) The priesthood of all believers
d) The primacy of the Bible as the only source of revealed truth
e) The belief in justification by faith alone
As to who “owns” the word Christian, it is orthodox Christians. That seems like a funny question to me.
I realized it would be. A “Funny” question because you never imagined that you might not be considered a Christian by someone else, you assumed ownership of the word without questioning how you got to “own” it.
Orthodox Christians can own Orthodox for they created it. Jesus Christ “created” Christianity, so he owns it. You are not him.
Who owns the word Mormon? And who gets to determine who is Mormon and who is just someone using the name without accepting the core doctrines of Mormonism? We are back to my already-posted points.
The LDS church does not own the word Mormon, or no one would be allowed to use it in anti Mormon literature (grin). As for controlling membership, well we are a church with a structure and a defining set of doctrines, not a faith.
Of course you are winding up back at your already posted points, grin that is common when presented with the opportunity to see another perspective. It is common to “run home” and pretend that other reality does not exist. However, your acceptance or the lack thereof of reality does not change reality itself.
I don’t assume I am in the group called Christianity. I know I am part of the group. I accept and acknowledge all of the core Christian doctrines.
Of course you think that. You are so accustomed to the air that you breathe that you only notice when it is missing or tainted. You assume your membership so completely that my even mentioning it seems strange to you. You talk about these “Doctrines of Christianity”, do you know what they are? Can you list all of them? Can you tell me how they got there?
Doctrine which is another word for
Dogma both reference the other when explaining themselves. Both are man made constructs to clarify beliefs. However, to deny me the right to worship Jesus without being in agreement with your consensus (for that is what orthodoxy means) makes no sense.
That seems pretty simple to me. Just like Mormons know they are Mormon because they accept and acknowledge the doctrines of the LDS. Right?
There are many who accept and acknowledge the doctrines of the LDS church who are not Mormons. As a Missionary, it was very frustrating to watch someone learn, grow and develop a testimony, only to have them tell you a parent, girlfriend, chemical addiction was something they could not give up for Jesus. They would often tearfully testify that the church was true, and then confess that they were under condemnation for not following what they knew. Often they would continue to attend services, but they were essentially dammed (their progression had stopped) until they would decide that Jesus was more important than something worldly that was holding them back.
So no, not everyone who accepts and believes is a Mormon. There are also many who no longer believe but for similar reasons do not follow their heart and resign their membership in the church. It’s just not that simple
All Christians are not Christians because they believe in Jesus Christ.
Actually, they are.
They are Christians because they believe in all of the core doctrines of Christianity.
That makes them Orthodox Christians.
There are lots of people and groups who could claim to believe in Jesus, but like I said before, if they believe he came to earth in a space ship and believe salvation comes through good singing, then they are not Christian.
If you believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that your salvation comes through him, and only him, you are Christian because that is what you believe. If you add spaceships and guitars, and tarot reading, as long as you believe in Jesus Christ as your God, you are a Christian. As soon as you say there is no God, or that your God is something or someone else, you are that religion. It is a matter of logic and English, that if someone claims a belief in Jesus Christ, they are Christians. The may be unorthodox, fine, they may accept things that you don’t, books that you don’t, prophets that you don’t, but they believe in Jesus Christ, so they are Christian.
If you tell someone I am not a Christian, you are telling them I do not believe in Jesus Christ. That is strictly not true. Any thing that is not true is false and knowingly telling a falsehood is well… not Christian. If you do not believe that we are, you are entitled to your opinion, but to state without any qualification is to tell something hat just isn’t true.
To be continued...
I hope so!
[[But we all agree on the core doctrines of the Christian religion, such as the nature of God, the means of salvation, who Jesus was, how the world was created, and the Bible as the only inspired scriptures.]]
“Interesting, I assume you are talking about the Trinity?”
I listed the nature of God (this would include the Trinity), the means of salvation, who Jesus was, how the world was created, and the Bible as the only inspired scriptures. If you were to look at the web site I posted a link to, you would find these and other points of doctrine addressed, with Bible references.
“If you believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that your salvation comes through him, and only him, you are Christian because that is what you believe. If you add spaceships and guitars, and tarot reading, as long as you believe in Jesus Christ as your God, you are a Christian.”
I strongly disagree with this, as do orthodox Christians in general. I respect your freedom to believe this, I am just making my opinion clear.
As to your question about why there are so many different churches: Why not? Is it any surprise that after 2000 years, the Church (The Body of Christ)—which is made up of human beings who have different personalities, opinions about peripheral issues, and preferences—would have some variety to it? Sure, people have had disagreements about things. And sure, there are some who are way out in left field. But we all agree on the core doctrines of Christianity, and that is what unites us. And maybe God likes variety? After all, look at his creation, all the different types of apples, and flowers, and fish, and birds!
I wouldn’t want all churches or denominations to be the same. We can all learn from and be challenged by our differences. Lutherans can learn from the free style of worship in Pentacostal churches. Pentacostals can learn from the structure and reverence of Catholic worship. Catholics can learn from the evangelistic emphasis of a Baptist church. We can all benefit from our differences. And we can all benefit from the challenge to be united despite our differences.
My family attends Lutheran churches. My husband’s parents attend a Christian and Missionary Alliance church. We ourselves have attended Christian and Missionary Alliance as well as Baptist churches. We have friends that attend a wide variety of churches, including Catholic. We do not argue amongst ourselves, although on a very rare occasion we have discussed peripheral issues in a friendly way. We all agree on the important things, so the differences are insignificant in our eyes.
I would venture to guess that Mormons would like there to be huge differences among the different denominations and churches, as that is really at the core of Joseph Smith’s first revelation, and it sounds like it is also at the core of the LDS missionary message. You are free to think what you will about orthodox Christians. But I as an orthodox Christian have shared my views on the topic.
Best regards!