Replies

You said:all agree on the core doctrines of the Christian religion, such as the nature of God, the means of salvation, who Jesus was, how the world was created, and the Bible as the only inspired scriptures.]]

I replied: Interesting, I assume you are talking about the Trinity?R>

You said: I listed the nature of God (this would include the Trinity), the means of salvation, who Jesus was, how the world was created, and the Bible as the only inspired scriptures. If you were to look at the web site I posted a link to, you would find these and other points of doctrine addressed, with Bible references.

Uh huh, OK, here is the Mormon perspective A website that explains Mormonism, LDS.org. You sending me to a website like that when I asked you a question is as useful as me just pointing you to a website like LDS.org and telling you to get back to me when you are done. I went, looked at a couple of links and said, yep, the rest of the site is the same. I am NOT going to spend days searching a site to get an answer to a question I asked you. When I talked about the trinity, the first council at Nicea and Hippolytus, I give links directly to the article on the web site, When I quote scriptures, I include links to the exact scripture (usually highlighted). I do not link entire web sites and say “knock your self out”.

I spend lots of time researching my posts and providing links so that those I am trying to teach about what I believe will find it worthwhile to read my posts and follow my links to exactly what I am talking about. If you do not care enough about your posts to do more than post a link to a website I should search to find out “what you believe” than I will cease reading your posts.

I said: “If you believe that Jesus is the Christ, and that your salvation comes through him, and only him, you are Christian because that is what you believe. If you add spaceships and guitars, and tarot reading, as long as you believe in Jesus Christ as your God, you are a Christian.”

You said:I strongly disagree with this, as do orthodox Christians in general. I respect your freedom to believe this, I am just making my opinion clear.

Great!, “Orthodox Christians” I wold completely agree with you that sucha church was not orthodox, they also would not be Mormon Lol!

As to your question about why there are so many different churches: Why not? Is it any surprise that after 2000 years, the Church (The Body of Christ)—which is made up of human beings who have different personalities, opinions about peripheral issues, and preferences—would have some variety to it? Sure, people have had disagreements about things. And sure, there are some who are way out in left field. But we all agree on the core doctrines of Christianity, and that is what unites us. And maybe God likes variety? After all, look at his creation, all the different types of apples, and flowers, and fish, and birds!

God commanded his disciples to be “one” John 17 21&22he desires unity in his people because he said so.

I wouldn’t want all churches or denominations to be the same.

Wait just a minute! Isn’t that what you just said you wanted? Go reread your post; I’ll wait…

We can all learn from and be challenged by our differences. Lutherans can learn from the free style of worship in Pentacostal churches. Pentacostals can learn from the structure and reverence of Catholic worship. Catholics can learn from the evangelistic emphasis of a Baptist church. We can all benefit from our differences. And we can all benefit from the challenge to be united despite our differences.

So are Mormons too different for you to learn from?

My family attends Lutheran churches. My husband’s parents attend a Christian and Missionary Alliance church. We ourselves have attended Christian and Missionary Alliance as well as Baptist churches. We have friends that attend a wide variety of churches, including Catholic. We do not argue amongst ourselves, although on a very rare occasion we have discussed peripheral issues in a friendly way. We all agree on the important things, so the differences are insignificant in our eyes.

You keep telling me about “Core Beliefs” “Core Doctrines” and “The important things” I asked you a for a list and you sent me to a website you did not even write, nor link to a specific page, but a search page.

I don’t think you have a list, I think you make it up as you go along. I don’t think you can post me a list of your beliefs as the “Core Doctrin of Christianity.”

Prove me wrong, please.

I would venture to guess that Mormons would like there to be huge differences among the different denominations and churches, as that is really at the core of Joseph Smith’s first revelation, and it sounds like it is also at the core of the LDS missionary message.

The first vision’s message was very powerful and like many of gods messages to man it has many meanings. I will list just a few of the obvious messages in this Vision.

1. The trinity is a false doctrine. (because Joseph smith saw two personages who were distinct from each other.)
2. God had not closed the heavens.
3. The true church did not exist on the earth at that time.

Lets discuss the trinity for a moment, woudldn’t you agree that knowing god’s nature is important if you are to woship him? (John 17:3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

As Mormon I note that he did not say, “And this is life eternal, that they might know me the only true God”. Because he is talking about someone besides himself.

Mormons believe that one of the places that apostasy happened was the first council at Nicea which was convened to reconcile the Arian controversy (a belief that God and Christ were separate and that Christ was created before time started) and the now prevailing view that god and Christ were “of the same substance”. This disagreement with in the church became known as the Arian Controversy It is important to note that both sides of this disagreement never questioned the other’s right to call themselves “Christian”.

The trinity was the creation of a pagan emperor named Constantine, who called the frist council at Nicea and with a combination of bribes, and threats got the church to agree on a creed that all of Rome could unite behind. This was his expressed purpose according to records he had kept of the event.

Finally Constantine, having conquered Licinius and become sole emperor, concerned himself with the re-establishment of religious peace as well as of civil order. He addressed letters to St. Alexander and to Arius deprecating these heated controversies regarding questions of no practical importance, and advising the adversaries to agree without delay.

And

The emperor began by making the bishops understand that they had a greater and better business in hand than personal quarrels and interminable recriminations.

Hippolytus Eusebius called him the most important theologian of the pre-Constantinian era. He was reportedly the great grandson of John the beloved. He wrote a set of ten books called “refutation of all heresies”

One of the Books, Against one Noetus
Specifically refutes the idea that God and Christ are one being and calls it heresy.

Here is a piece from book X that I like to quote because as a summation, it contains most of the plan of salvation as taught by the LDS church.

“Such is the true doctrine in regard of the divine nature, O you men, Greeks and Barbarians, Chaldeans and Assyrians, Egyptians and Libyans, Indians and Ethiopians, Celts, and you Latins, who lead armies, and all you that inhabit Europe, and Asia, and Libya.6 And to you I am become an adviser, inasmuch as I am a disciple of the benevolent Logos, and hence humane, in order that you may hasten and by us may be taught who the true God is, and what is His well-ordered creation. Do not devote your attention to the fallacies of artificial discourses, nor the vain promises of plagiarizing heretics,6 but to the venerable simplicity of unassuming truth. And by means of this knowledge you shall escape the approaching threat of the fire of judgment, and the rayless scenery of gloomy Tartarus,6 where never shines a beam from the irradiating voice of the Word!

You shall escape the boiling flood of hell's6 eternal lake of fire and the eye ever fixed in menacing glare of fallen angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins; and you shall escape the worm that ceaselessly coils for food around the body whose scum6 has bred it. Now such (torments) as these shall you avoid by being instructed in a knowledge of the true God. And you shall possess an immortal body, even one placed beyond the possibility of corruption, just like the soul. And you shall receive the kingdom of heaven, you who, while you sojourned in this life, knew the Celestial King. And you shall be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For you have become God:7 for whatever sufferings you underwent while being a man, these He gave to you, because you were of mortal mould, but whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon you, because you have been deified, and begotten unto immortality.7 This constitutes the import of the proverb, "Know yourself; "i.e., discover God within yourself, for He has formed you after His own image. For with the knowledge of self is conjoined the being an object of God's knowledge, for you are called by the Deity Himself. Be not therefore inflamed, O you men, with enmity one towards another, nor hesitate to retrace7 with all speed your steps. For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings,7 rendering regenerate the old man. And God called man His likeness from the beginning, and has evinced in a figure His love towards you. And provided you obey His solemn injunctions, and becomest a faithful follower of Him who is good, you shall resemble Him, inasmuch as you shall have honour conferred upon you by Him. For the Deity, (by condescension,) does not diminish anything of the divinity of His divine7 perfection; having made you even God unto His glory!7”

So between the time that Hippolytus died in 236 and the Council at Nicea in 325 AD the view of the church swung from three entities acting as one God to one God made up of three manifestations. This is really not a HUGE change when you think about it, but it has many important ramifications.

You are free to think what you will about orthodox Christians. But I as an orthodox Christian have shared my views on the topic.

Great, I as a Mormon have also shared my views on the topic. I have spent over an hour putting together the links and quotations for this post and I hope you will at least do me the courtesy of looking at the links and thinking about what I said. I have not sent you to an index, but to actual documents on the Catholic site, online dictionaries that have IMHO the most complete listings for the topic, and the bible. None of this is “Joseph Smith” revelation; all of it is from sources outside the LDS church. I hope after reading this you will agree with me that the LDS church while un orthodox deserves the benefit of the doubt and is Christian.

Thank you, and my God be with you.

The first vision’s message was very powerful and like many of gods messages to man it has many meanings. I will list just a few of the obvious messages in this Vision.
1. The trinity is a false doctrine. (because Joseph smith saw two personages who were distinct from each other.)

-------------------------------------------

The first vision's message...

To which of Joesph Smith's accounts of the first vision do you refer; the suppressed 1832 account where he only mentions Jesus appearing to him or the 1835 account which mentions "angels" but not God or Jesus?

...because Joseph Smith saw...

You believe in the credibility of a man who said:

"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go."
(History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)

...two personages who were distinct from each other.

A flesh and bone Father, or a Father who is a personage of spirit?

Written by Joseph Smith in 1835, why was the following deleted in 1921?

There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things - by whom all things were created and made, that are created and made, whether visible or invisible; whether in heaven, on earth, or in the earth, under the earth, or throughout the immensity of space - They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fullness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made, or fashioned like unto man, or being in the form and likeness of man, or, rather, man was formed after his likeness, and in his image;... and is called the Son because of the flesh
(Lectures on Faith, Lecture Fifth, p. 53).

Since that was written in 1835 why does LDS today teach that that Joseph Smith discovered that both God the Father and the Son have bodies of flesh and bone when he saw them in his First Vision in 1820, and why did the LDS delete the passage in 1921?

The trinity was the creation of a pagan emperor named Constantine, who called the frist council at Nicea and with a combination of bribes, and threats got the church to agree on a creed that all of Rome could unite behind.

Why would anyone be inclined to accept a characterization of ancient church history from people who can't even get their own comparatively recent history straight?

Cordially,