Posted on 04/18/2007 1:55:30 PM PDT by Ben Mugged
A Virginia court found that Virginia Tech killer Seung-Hui Cho was "mentally ill" and dangerous. Then it let him go.
Back in 2005, the District Court in Christiansburg said that Cho was a danger to himself but not others. He was ordered to undergo outpatient care.
The ruling came after Cho was taken to a nearby psychiatric hospital for evaluation in December 2005, after two female schoolmates said they received threatening messages from him and police and school officials became concerned that he might be suicidal.
That information came to light two days after Cho, a Virginia Tech senior, killed 32 people and then himself in a shooting rampage on the university's campus.
Police obtained the order from a local magistrate after it was determined by a state certified employee that Cho met legal criteria for temporary detention that includes being a threat to others and being unable to care for himself.
Under Virginia law, "A magistrate has the authority to issue a detention order upon a finding that a person is mentally ill and in need of hospitalization or treatment.
"The magistrate also must find that the person is an imminent danger to himself or others," says the guideline from Virginia's state court system.
Wendell Flinchum, the chief of the Virginia Tech police department, said that it's common for police to work with mental health facilities
"We normally go through access [appealing to the state's legal system for help] because they have the power to commit people if they need to be committed," said Wendell Flinchum, chief of the Virginia Tech police department.
(Excerpt) Read more at abcnews.go.com ...
“It sounds like the records did not transfer from the Court...for some reason.”
You would be absolutely amazed how often that occurs. I (and others in the legal profession) have recently been talking about that “little” problem and it sometimes takes three or four tries to git-er-done. First of all, you have to have a clerk that gives a $—+, then you have to have a lawyer follow up for a year or two. It’s a great system — when it works.
Why was this information not in the Virginia computer used system for handgun purchase background checks??? It seems a major update of that system is in order.
That's a sex crime in many places in WI. Sneak in the bushes while you're fishiin', water a tree, get caught and yer name goes on the web with the worst of the child molesters. LOL! I think a good number of public officials ought to be committed, then have the keys tossed in the lake.
Keep reading. It looks like a massive system failure on the part of the instant check system.
The school should have suspended him. Look at the Duke students, they were suspended. Why was this guy allowed to continue in school?
Says who? Words mean things and legal words mean specific legal things.
What is the legal definition for the purposes of the statute and what is the legal definition of adjudication of mental illness in the state of VA?
It is not a judge signing a temporary detention/evaluation order.
Your logic makes no sense. The NICS system can very well be updated to correctly access court decisions declaring a person mentally incompetent. It seems the Virginia system has serious failings which can be corrected. This is not exactly rocket science.
ABC could check the VA court records with a FIA request and they have the results of the ATF check on the FFLs paperwork already.
You obviously didn’t read the entire article:
In December 2005 — more than a year before Monday’s mass shootings — a district court in Montgomery County, Va., ruled that Cho presented “an imminent danger to self or others.” That was the necessary criterion for a detention order, so that Cho, who had been accused of stalking by two female schoolmates, could be evaluated by a state doctor and ordered to undergo outpatient care.
According to the “Temporary Detention Order” obtained by ABC News, psychologist Roy Crouse found Cho’s “affect is flat and mood is depressed.
“He denies suicidal ideation. He does not acknowledge symptoms of a thought disorder,” Dr. Crouse wrote. “His insight and judgment are normal.”
That information came to light two days after Cho, a Virginia Tech senior, killed 32 people and then himself in a shooting rampage on the university’s campus.
‘An Imminent Danger to Himself’
The evaluation came from a psychiatric hospital near Virginia Tech, where Cho was taken by police in December 2005, after two female schoolmates said they received threatening messages from him, and police and school officials became concerned that he might be suicidal.
After Dr. Crouse’s psychological evaluation of Cho, Special Justice Paul M. Barnett certified the finding, ordering followup treatment on an outpatient basis.
On the form, a box is checked, showing that Cho “presents an imminent danger to himself as a result of mental illness.”
Immediately below it was another box that is not checked: “Presents an imminent danger to others as a result of mental illness.”
***
Game. Set. Match. The temporary order was needed to evaluate, he was evaluated, found mentally ill, confirmed by the court and ordered to undergo outpatient treatment.
That is adjudication of mental illness, period. He should have never been able to buy either one of those guns. The liberal feel-good instant-check system failed - twice.
I certainly don’t want to hear any squawking from liberals about passing new laws. Unless we can figure out how to enforce existing laws what good does it do to pass more laws? I would like to see differences put aside for now and attention being paid to how to enforce what we have.
Psst - the VA system is *already* supposed to be tracking court decisions like this. It didn’t.
See upthread where the VA authority is quoted.
Yes, but wouldn’t they have had to know what court this guy was adjudicated in? And if they got ahold of a copy, I think it almost would *have* to have been in the system for the clerk to even locate the copy, as they are filed by case number, not name.
A while back I read an article that many states only require courts to update the background databases for felony arrests/convictions, which means that Misdemeanor Domestic Violence and Mental Compentency rulings are routinely left off, pretty much making those boxes on the 4473 answered on the “honor” system.
THe keyword is committed. He was involuntarily committed to a psych inst. for evaluaiton. That means the judge was convinced an evaluation was both prudent and necessary for his own welfare, or the welfare of others and the person committed refused it. No judge determines a person mentally ill, they order that docs make the determinaiton, upon the presentation of evidence that indicates to a reasonable person, that the guy is incapable of handling his own affairs(a danger to himself), or a danger to others.
Ouch!
Another reason never to visit WI!
True 0 except VA isn’t one of them, having many of the liberals’ wet dreams as far as gun control laws and societal control laws are concerned.
They *have* a database of those mental competency cases.
Sure. But the problem with the system has to be then _technical_ in nature. You suggested scrapping the entire system because it has technical failing. Why not to fix the system? The reason why Cho's mental incompetency didn't come up in the NICS check can surely be traced. Fixing the system should be a relatively straight-forward engineering task.
I suppose they just made FOI requests in the Co. the schools in and maybe even fished in other Cos. and States. One could start with the arresting PD to pick up a trail. You could probably do a check online for some cash and discover this info.
"as they are filed by case number, not name."
Case number's can be obtained with a name. BD and SSN can allow for less irrelevant hits.
OK, but you have to use a computer to get that case number, no?
And if it’s in that computer index, chances are everything else relevant is too.
Due to state and federal laws,, it is not an easy thing to take away someone rights like this, and it shouldn’t be. . But,, having said that,, it is also a word game. When a person is brought in to an ER for an evaluation,, if they say the right words the chances are good they will be released. They will always be asked “Are you suicidal?” If they say no,, and repeat no to all the questions like “Have any plans to hurt yourself or others??” chances are good they will be released,, unless someone else is willing to testify in court to actions otherwise. There has been a big push to empty the mental hospitals. There is also a big push to increase the rights and choices of people with mental illnesses. You may not realize the nutcase that may be living next door to you. I am very serious about this. There are people walking the streets that have been released due to liberals that are real walking time bombs. They know how to say the right words and fake it enough to stay on the streets. But they are a real danger.
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