Posted on 02/05/2007 6:19:33 PM PST by JTN
CLEVELAND -- Red-light cameras installed at Cleveland intersections have become controversial.
5 On Your Side chief investigator Duane Pohlman said flashes are oftentimes the only clue the cameras caught cars speeding or running red lights.
Confirmation arrives later as a ticket in the mail, with a $100 fine.
The cameras are triggering key questions before Ohio's highest court.
"We are starting to lose our freedom," one motorist said.
At the very least, motorists said these devices are just plain unfair.
"I think we should get rid of them," another motorist said.
For the past six months, 5 On Your Side has been investigating the red-light cameras and found, from the sophisticated electronics to the system that supports it, the cameras not only can make mistakes -- they do, Pohlman said.
NewsChannel5 spoke with Dave Hatala, a 5 On Your Side videographer.
"Something's wrong with the whole system," Hatala said.
He got a ticket in the mail saying he was speeding on Chester Avenue at East 71st Street. He was cited for going 48 mph in a 35 mph zone.
The only problem is that Hatala insisted he never went that fast
"This was wrong, and I'm willing to fight that," he said.
Along with his ticket, Hatala got pictures showing his van and another car that appeared to be going faster.
"I immediately could see they ticketed the wrong lane," Hatala said. "A car going faster than me that you can clearly see is overtaking me."
Could the ticket be a mistake?
To get answers, Pohlman went to Chris Butler, a math professor at Case Western University.
"If you know the distance and you know the time you can calculate the speed," Butler said.
Hatala brought the measuring device. Butler measured the location using markers from the pictures.
He determined Hatala's real rate of speed.
"Dave Hatala was traveling 40.5 mph," Butler said.
He also found the real speed for that other car, too -- 48 mph.
Hatala brought the findings to court to challenge his ticket.
"Becomes pretty clear that it wasn't your vehicle that was speeding," the judge said.
He didn't have to argue much. Pohlman said the court admitted the ticket was issued to the wrong car, in the wrong lane.
"So based upon the testimony provided we are going to find you not liable for this violation," the judge said.
Pohlman reported a different problem at that same location on Chester Avenue at East 71st Street.
Bill and Sue Faber of Massillon said they haven't been in Cleveland for six months, but the city sent them a ticket.
"No way we could be in Cleveland," Faber said.
"Do you have witnesses for that?" Pohlman asked.
"Yes, we do," Faber said.
Yet Cleveland sent the ticket showing a car speeding, but the plate belongs to the Faber's truck.
Pohlman said you can't read the license in the picture at all. He said it appears Cleveland guessed and sent the ticket anyway.
"I always thought we were always innocent until proven guilty and now I find it's guilty until I can prove I'm innocent," Faber said.
After NewsChannel5 got involved, the city backed off, writing a letter informing the Fabers that the city made a mistake.
"I thought it was ridiculous," Faber said.
NewsChannel5 has received hundreds of e-mails about the red-light cameras and Pohlman continues his investigation at 11 p.m.
Ping
Another problem is more rear-end collisions, as drivers in front slam on the brakes to avoid going through on a yellow (which is permissible).
The city fathers attempt to justify this by saying, "Well, rear end collisions are safer than T-bones." As though drivers were totally interchangeable and fungible, and a rear end collision is a T-bone prevented (not!). Doesn't help the guy whose car is totalled when the engine compartment collapses (or the guy whose nose is broken by the airbag.)
Part of the problem is the judge's and prosecutor's salary comes from the same kitty fed by the traffic citations.
This is akin to the tax farming of the Roman Empire: Wealthy or soon to be wealthy men would buy the right to collect taxes, fees, tarriffs, or tolls, over a certain geographical area, for a certain period of time. The government was paid up front, and the people were squeezed to make the profit. Such was the life that Matthew the Publican led.
Let us hope that we can give these new ticks "religion".
So to keep you from running red lights and broadsiding my family you decide you are losing your freedom.
Ha. Ha. (McCain-Feingold, gun control, income tax, regulation, litigation, EPA..,
They may be right, but there is one inconvenient fact that they leave out - that they can prevent both by lengthening yellow lights. Of course, that doesn't bring in revenue.
Wait until these speed cameras start ticketing speeders on freeways and surface streets. It's already done in one State but I forgot to make a note what State.
Bingo! We have a winner!
Ever received a $100 ticket in the mail from somewhere you had never been?
I have.
Fortunately for me, I had proof available that I was somewhere else at the time the photo of a license plate that looked similar to mine was taken on a vehicle running a light.
So, you're thinking you could be mid-intersection just .5 seconds after the light turns green??
You'd have to be crossing the limit line at the instant the light went to green, and going 30mph in order to do that, which is called "timing" the light, and is every bit as illegal as running the red.
There was a news story a few years ago titled something like "Tale of the 3 Second Yellow Light". I could have sworn I posted it to FR, but I can't find it now. It was about a motorist who received a ticket for running a red. He timed the yellow lights along that stretch of road and found that all the others, which had no cameras on them, had yellow lights that were about a second longer than the camera equipped light where he was ticketed.
You know what would work? When the light turns red and 3'' steel plate comes up vertically from the street 3 feet high stopping any moving object in its tracks.
We have a couple of "problem" intersections locally that have very long yellows . . . with good effect. It does separate the sheep from the goats . . .
Traffic Tickets have always been guilty until proven innocent. Nothing new about that.
Tell me one other court where a police officer can testify alone ,his word against yours and you are guilty.
Arizona has the most egregious examples of this hidden tax program. The CITY of Scottsdale is taxing citizens, er I mean issuing tickets to speeders, by positioning unmanned photo radar (speed cameras) along a stretch of STATE highway in one of the most affluent sections of Arizona.
Wait til the other states get a load of the revenue, excuse me, I mean safe driving conditions, this will generate.
Puhlease.
The highway patrol's union head (I think that's who said this) had it right:
"Convincing citizens that photo radar is in their best interest is like convincing trout that fishing in their stream is for their benefit".
One city in AZ realized they were short of revenue for their targets...so they decided to buy another camera to offset the decrease in tax revenues. Now, all these redlight cameras have been "upgraded" to add speed detection capability.
Read the Arizona Repulsive's coverage of the issue. See how they repeat the tired mantra - "its about safety, its for the children". Not content their message was getting through, they even named the section of freeway a catchy name like "the death corridor" because it had 7 fatalities in one year (or some such relatively insignificant and easily spun statistic).
With their worn out mantra about safety, they mention all the stats about tickets issued, fines collected, non-issuable tickets...conspicuously absent is accident prevention metrics where the best they can do for relevant metrics is comparing this heavily regulated, camera-covered stretch of highway to an equidistant (yet socio-demographically opposite) but non-camera covered stretch of highway on the absolute other side of town.
They have yet to "release" the metrics showing how effective these tactics have been on reducing accidents in the same section of freeway in a similar time period after the install of the cameras.
For a time, the state legislators balked at the audacity of Scottsdale to poach on their turf...right up until they got a whiff of the cash involved. Seems the state is now complicit after a deal to share proceeds. Our "Janet Reno-lite" governor is now pushing for more cities to adopt this tactic to fleece law abiding citizens and enrich the camera company that pockets the lion's share of the fine. The city of Scottsdale opened a revamped impressive payment processing center that has 20 some windows to handle the volume of transactions around these tickets.
We need to stand up and resist these veiled attempts to make law abiding citizens pay, meanwhile they do nothing to add police to the streets to pursue thefts, drunk drivers, and legitimate threats to public safety...
Arizona has the most egregious examples of this hidden tax program. The CITY of Scottsdale is taxing citizens, er I mean issuing tickets to speeders, by positioning unmanned photo radar (speed cameras) along a stretch of STATE highway in one of the most affluent sections of Arizona.
Wait til the other states get a load of the revenue, excuse me, I mean safe driving conditions, this will generate.
Puhlease.
The highway patrol's union head (I think that's who said this) had it right:
"Convincing citizens that photo radar is in their best interest is like convincing trout that fishing in their stream is for their benefit".
One city in AZ realized they were short of revenue for their targets...so they decided to buy another camera to offset the decrease in tax revenues. Now, all these redlight cameras have been "upgraded" to add speed detection capability.
Read the Arizona Repulsive's coverage of the issue. See how they repeat the tired mantra - "its about safety, its for the children". Not content their message was getting through, they even named the section of freeway a catchy name like "the death corridor" because it had 7 fatalities in one year (or some such relatively insignificant and easily spun statistic).
With their worn out mantra about safety, they mention all the stats about tickets issued, fines collected, non-issuable tickets...conspicuously absent is accident prevention metrics where the best they can do for relevant metrics is comparing this heavily regulated, camera-covered stretch of highway to an equidistant (yet socio-demographically opposite) but non-camera covered stretch of highway on the absolute other side of town.
They have yet to "release" the metrics showing how effective these tactics have been on reducing accidents in the same section of freeway in a similar time period after the install of the cameras.
For a time, the state legislators balked at the audacity of Scottsdale to poach on their turf...right up until they got a whiff of the cash involved. Seems the state is now complicit after a deal to share proceeds. Our "Janet Reno-lite" governor is now pushing for more cities to adopt this tactic to fleece law abiding citizens and enrich the camera company that pockets the lion's share of the fine. The city of Scottsdale opened a revamped impressive payment processing center that has 20 some windows to handle the volume of transactions around these tickets.
We need to stand up and resist these veiled attempts to make law abiding citizens pay, meanwhile they do nothing to add police to the streets to pursue thefts, drunk drivers, and legitimate threats to public safety...
dang - must have hung on the "post" button a little too long. Apologies!
I have too. I gave a car to a needy lady in the area and she never registered it in her name. I was dumb enough not to check and make sure. I got a red light violation in the mail. Damn glad she didn't do something worse.
Better than lengthening the yellow -- create one second of 4-way red between cycles. It gives an opportunity for all cars to clear the intersection before the next green.
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