Posted on 02/05/2007 6:19:33 PM PST by JTN
CLEVELAND -- Red-light cameras installed at Cleveland intersections have become controversial.
5 On Your Side chief investigator Duane Pohlman said flashes are oftentimes the only clue the cameras caught cars speeding or running red lights.
Confirmation arrives later as a ticket in the mail, with a $100 fine.
The cameras are triggering key questions before Ohio's highest court.
"We are starting to lose our freedom," one motorist said.
At the very least, motorists said these devices are just plain unfair.
"I think we should get rid of them," another motorist said.
For the past six months, 5 On Your Side has been investigating the red-light cameras and found, from the sophisticated electronics to the system that supports it, the cameras not only can make mistakes -- they do, Pohlman said.
NewsChannel5 spoke with Dave Hatala, a 5 On Your Side videographer.
"Something's wrong with the whole system," Hatala said.
He got a ticket in the mail saying he was speeding on Chester Avenue at East 71st Street. He was cited for going 48 mph in a 35 mph zone.
The only problem is that Hatala insisted he never went that fast
"This was wrong, and I'm willing to fight that," he said.
Along with his ticket, Hatala got pictures showing his van and another car that appeared to be going faster.
"I immediately could see they ticketed the wrong lane," Hatala said. "A car going faster than me that you can clearly see is overtaking me."
Could the ticket be a mistake?
To get answers, Pohlman went to Chris Butler, a math professor at Case Western University.
"If you know the distance and you know the time you can calculate the speed," Butler said.
Hatala brought the measuring device. Butler measured the location using markers from the pictures.
He determined Hatala's real rate of speed.
"Dave Hatala was traveling 40.5 mph," Butler said.
He also found the real speed for that other car, too -- 48 mph.
Hatala brought the findings to court to challenge his ticket.
"Becomes pretty clear that it wasn't your vehicle that was speeding," the judge said.
He didn't have to argue much. Pohlman said the court admitted the ticket was issued to the wrong car, in the wrong lane.
"So based upon the testimony provided we are going to find you not liable for this violation," the judge said.
Pohlman reported a different problem at that same location on Chester Avenue at East 71st Street.
Bill and Sue Faber of Massillon said they haven't been in Cleveland for six months, but the city sent them a ticket.
"No way we could be in Cleveland," Faber said.
"Do you have witnesses for that?" Pohlman asked.
"Yes, we do," Faber said.
Yet Cleveland sent the ticket showing a car speeding, but the plate belongs to the Faber's truck.
Pohlman said you can't read the license in the picture at all. He said it appears Cleveland guessed and sent the ticket anyway.
"I always thought we were always innocent until proven guilty and now I find it's guilty until I can prove I'm innocent," Faber said.
After NewsChannel5 got involved, the city backed off, writing a letter informing the Fabers that the city made a mistake.
"I thought it was ridiculous," Faber said.
NewsChannel5 has received hundreds of e-mails about the red-light cameras and Pohlman continues his investigation at 11 p.m.
"Ever received a $100 ticket in the mail from somewhere you had never been?
I have. "
I can beat that, I got a property tax bill from the Sheriff if Charleston County SC for 2 cars I did not own at a time when I was living outside of the country.
They demanded money right then or else. I very impolitely told them what they could do with their demand.
"These infernal things are pretty new here.
The good news is they're already being paintballed.
Pretty soon, they'll get pushed over or pulled down with chains, then they'll start suffering from a combination of old tires and gasoline."
The proper way to deal with government excess. When the cost of maintaining the things is more than the revenue stream, the practice will stop.
Then they'll send you a picture of handcuffs
Yep, and also the salaries of the cops.
The best thing that could ever happen would be for a federal law to be passed that mandated that cities and counties could not keep any of the fines collected from traffic offenses - it all had to go to some overseas charity.
If that were the case, the police department would start focusing on real crimes rather than meaningless traffic offenses and the police dept would stop being a revenue collection dept.
My uncle has a country place
That no one knows about.
He says it used to be a farm,
Before the Motor Law.
And on Sundays I elude the Eyes,
And hop the Turbine Freight
To far outside the Wire,
Where my white-haired uncle waits.
Jump to the ground
As the Turbo slows to cross the Borderline.
Run like the wind,
As excitement shivers up and down my spine.
Down in his barn,
My uncle preserved for me an old machine,
For fifty-odd years.
To keep it as new has been his dearest dream.
I strip away the old debris
That hides a shining car.
A brilliant red Barchetta
From a better, vanished time.
I fire up the willing engine,
Responding with a roar.
Tires spitting gravel,
I commit my weekly crime...
Wind-
In my hair-
Shifting and drifting-
Mechanical music-
Adrenalin surge...
Well-weathered leather,
Hot metal and oil,
The scented country air.
Sunlight on chrome,
The blur of the landscape,
Every nerve aware.
Suddenly ahead of me,
Across the mountainside,
A gleaming alloy air-car
Shoots towards me, two lanes wide.
I spin around with shrieking tires,
To run the deadly race,
Go screaming through the valley
As another joins the chase.
Drive like the wind,
Straining the limits of machine and man.
Laughing out loud
With fear and hope, I've got a desperate plan.
At the one-lane bridge
I leave the giants stranded at the riverside.
Race back to the farm,
to dream with my uncle at the fireside.
Nah, almost no jurisdiction will write tickets for that low of a speed difference. In fact, here in GA, only State Troopers can write one for less that 11 over. This is supposed to prevent towns from setting up cash cow speed traps for minor violations.
If the ticket is less 14 mph or less over the limit then it doesn't even go to your insurance. Of course that is GA and all states will vary.
I sure hope so.
From a technical perspective, yeah, it shouldn't be a problem, but in practice, there are some situations that arise wherein it could be a very big problem:
-- You're timing and someone in cross traffic blows the light at the same time, so you t-bone them or they t-bone you.
-- You're timing and emergency traffic trips the preemptor so your light unexpectedly stays red forcing you to drop anchor -- hard -- at the last instant.
You may well be right about the legality in your state, and it may or may not be different across the country, so I'll conceded that point unless/until I find hard data to the contrary.
I think everyone does the "timing" thing to some extent, and it's actually prtty smart if done conservatively as a means to avoid excess braking and accelerating, so we agree there. If there's any aspect of the practice that might be illegal, it would be the case where someone's crossing the limit line at or above the posted limit just as the light goes green, and it would only be illegal owing to the elevated risk that such a vehicle would be exposed to a substantively elevated risk of getting t-boned by inattentive cross trafffic blowing their red light.
Yeah, there ya go. Exactly. If he nails the count, he's blowing through the line for a sack; if not, he gets the yellow flag and the penalty. There's a definite risk calculation involved, and it's greater on the road.
I should note my policy is not, "Don't ever do this"; it is, "If/When you do this, do it with hyper-awareness and adequate caution, because if you screw it up, the price may be far higher than you wanted to pay."
Not really. Robbery is a mala in se crime. Red light running, while potentially dangerous is a traffic violation. Applying the way the gov't handles red light cameras would to bank robbery would be arresting someone who looks like the robber in the banks cctv cameras. The enforcement absuse potentials are a night and day difference.
If a city is encountering a big problem at certain intersections they can do the following:
1. Make sure the lights are timed well so people don't get stuck at every one when driving with the flow of traffic.
2. Make sure the yellows are long enough.
3. Post cops at red lights for a while and ticket the people who run the red lights.
No enforcement abuses, point made.
I'm not sure what you mean. The way my city handles it is they take a picture of your car in the intersection, red light on, license plate clear. If that's not a violation I don't know what is. The lights are all timed. The yellows are long enough. It would take an army of cops at the myriad intersections here.
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh...quit your bellyachin' - that's why we have a judicial system
LOL!
Whoa, no wiggle room for me there!
Except that enforcement of the speed limit against this person would be arbitrary and capricious (especially since he would appear, based upon available data points, to have been travelling below the median speed of traffic).
If I were a cop with a radar and video camera, and were interested in ticketing dangerous motorists, I would issue tickets to motorists who, at any time while the light was red or there was traffic in the intersection that did not have enough momentum to clear it, would not have been able to stop safely before the intersection had the light remained red or the motorists therein not gotten clear. I'd be fairly nice and assume motorists were capable of 1.5g braking (which is pretty hard).
The safe way to time a light is to slow down enough that when the light is expected to turn green you'll still be far enough away from the intersection when the light is expected to turn green that you'll still be able to stop if for whatever reason it does not.
If a motorist is uncertain of whether the vehicle behind him would be able to stop a full car length before an intersection whose light has just turned yellow, it is safer for the motorist to proceed than to try to stop. The number one traffic law is that motorists are supposed to avoid collisions, other traffic regulations notwithstanding; the traffic signal regulations would be subservient to that. Actually, there was one time I floorboarded my way into an intersection just as my light turned red (I'd stopped for the yellow) because I judged that the motorist behind me wasn't going to be able to stop. Actually, I wasn't expecting to avoid a collision, but merely lessen the impact. As it happened, I got far enough in front of the cars to either side (which were also stopped at the intersection) that the bat-out-of-Hell motorist was able to pass me in the intersection. Otherwise I would have been rear-ended for sure. Did I "run the red light"? Yeah, I guess. If I'd gotten a ticket would I have fought it? You betcha.
Since the red light cameras don't offer any "big picture" view of the traffic situation at an intersection, there's no way to judge whether any mitigating factors are applicable. Further, the existence of such cameras will tend to cause motorists to shift their judgements to the detriment of both safety and traffic flow.
The one unresolved question is: "Is it illegal to time triffic lights in a manner that is out of line with the criteria you set forth?"
Sorry but I'm not buying any of that. The MAIN rule is don't follow too closely. You never know when a dog, child or deer is going to jump out in front of the car you are following. If someone is following too closely at an intersection and the lead car brakes for an amber light the car behind has 100% of the responsibility to stop. Not the camera, not the timing of the amber, nothing.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.