Posted on 02/05/2007 6:19:33 PM PST by JTN
CLEVELAND -- Red-light cameras installed at Cleveland intersections have become controversial.
5 On Your Side chief investigator Duane Pohlman said flashes are oftentimes the only clue the cameras caught cars speeding or running red lights.
Confirmation arrives later as a ticket in the mail, with a $100 fine.
The cameras are triggering key questions before Ohio's highest court.
"We are starting to lose our freedom," one motorist said.
At the very least, motorists said these devices are just plain unfair.
"I think we should get rid of them," another motorist said.
For the past six months, 5 On Your Side has been investigating the red-light cameras and found, from the sophisticated electronics to the system that supports it, the cameras not only can make mistakes -- they do, Pohlman said.
NewsChannel5 spoke with Dave Hatala, a 5 On Your Side videographer.
"Something's wrong with the whole system," Hatala said.
He got a ticket in the mail saying he was speeding on Chester Avenue at East 71st Street. He was cited for going 48 mph in a 35 mph zone.
The only problem is that Hatala insisted he never went that fast
"This was wrong, and I'm willing to fight that," he said.
Along with his ticket, Hatala got pictures showing his van and another car that appeared to be going faster.
"I immediately could see they ticketed the wrong lane," Hatala said. "A car going faster than me that you can clearly see is overtaking me."
Could the ticket be a mistake?
To get answers, Pohlman went to Chris Butler, a math professor at Case Western University.
"If you know the distance and you know the time you can calculate the speed," Butler said.
Hatala brought the measuring device. Butler measured the location using markers from the pictures.
He determined Hatala's real rate of speed.
"Dave Hatala was traveling 40.5 mph," Butler said.
He also found the real speed for that other car, too -- 48 mph.
Hatala brought the findings to court to challenge his ticket.
"Becomes pretty clear that it wasn't your vehicle that was speeding," the judge said.
He didn't have to argue much. Pohlman said the court admitted the ticket was issued to the wrong car, in the wrong lane.
"So based upon the testimony provided we are going to find you not liable for this violation," the judge said.
Pohlman reported a different problem at that same location on Chester Avenue at East 71st Street.
Bill and Sue Faber of Massillon said they haven't been in Cleveland for six months, but the city sent them a ticket.
"No way we could be in Cleveland," Faber said.
"Do you have witnesses for that?" Pohlman asked.
"Yes, we do," Faber said.
Yet Cleveland sent the ticket showing a car speeding, but the plate belongs to the Faber's truck.
Pohlman said you can't read the license in the picture at all. He said it appears Cleveland guessed and sent the ticket anyway.
"I always thought we were always innocent until proven guilty and now I find it's guilty until I can prove I'm innocent," Faber said.
After NewsChannel5 got involved, the city backed off, writing a letter informing the Fabers that the city made a mistake.
"I thought it was ridiculous," Faber said.
NewsChannel5 has received hundreds of e-mails about the red-light cameras and Pohlman continues his investigation at 11 p.m.
Don't bother, a lot of those 98'ers just post and run, knowing they're unable to defend their positions.
We have a right to face our accusers. Who is the accuser here? The fuzzy picture of a license plate, or the person that makes up a plate number for the one he cannot read? If you have kept up with this issue, you know that in DC it is practically an epidemic, and accounts for millions in [illegally confiscated] revenue. It is literally a sick joke that is a crime.
Not only are these practices not protecting us, they are tools for corrupt agencies to steal our money and freedom.
I'm in favor of huge fines for red light runners. But only if they are caught by a person who witnessed it and can be called upon to swear under oath that he did see it. It's pretty damn easy to sit at an intersection and catch red light runners all day long.
Well, I'm going to have to eat crow on this one.
Tailgaters, careless cell phone talkers, lane darters, red-light cheaters, speeders, make up appliers, map readers, eaters - hell they all ought to be put in jail for a night. They are a threat to me and my family.
What's a 98er and why are you pinging me?
Please site the statute(s).
I don't disagree with you. Abuse of the law by authorities is one thing. If it were happening here I would raise hell. But it isn't. The camera shots are clear as a bell and include a picture of the stoplight.
These aren't traffic tickets. They're "administrative fees".
That's how the municipalities that have these vile things circumvent due process.
Those unmaned speed camera came about after constant problems with drivers doing 100+ mph on that same state highway. DPS could never take care of the problem so Scottsdale got tired of it and put cameras on the freeway.
I'd complain but I'm not in the "It's a god given right to do 115 in a 65" group.
The good news is they're already being paintballed.
Pretty soon, they'll get pushed over or pulled down with chains, then they'll start suffering from a combination of old tires and gasoline.
Let me begin by saying I probably have to eat crow on this one, as you are out of the norm.
A 98er is someone who signed up at FR in 1998, as you did. There is a history of those folks, with some exceptions, posting provocative one liners, and then running away.
No one has an obligation to back up anything they post, but I was just warning the other two that they probably weren't going to get the satisfaction of grilling you about your post.
I ve gotten one of them on my motorcycle. about 2 months after the supposed violation. I made it a point to cover my tag and go thru the camera again with my middle finger raised. Its just a way to rip off the public.
It appears NewsChannel5 can't tell the difference between a red light camera and a speed camera. Both the incidents described involve a speed camera.
The city fathers attempt to justify this by saying, "Well, rear end collisions are safer than T-bones.
Tell that to someone that needs a spinal rod placed, a head injury or worse.
Can't have a government entity fining itself or some other government entity.
"Timing" involves trying to gague when the light's going to go green so that you do not have to slow down. If you're right, you hit the limit line as the light's changing, if you're wrong, you blow a red light, and possibly cause a wreck. People timing traffic lights base their actions on the color of lights for cross traffic; watching to see the green-to-yellow change, and trying to adjust their speed so that they will cross the limit line as the light for cross traffic goes to red and their own light changes to green.
Success depends upon speed, distance from the intersection, duration of the yellow, lag beteween the appearance of the red light for cross traffic, and the appearance of green for the one doing the timing. Success also depends upon there being NOBODY in the flow of cross traffic who happens to legally enter the intersection late in the yellow and still be on the way out as the cross traffic light goes to red. Any vehicle going through late is at high risk for being t-boned by the person "timing" the light.
I'll have to do more sleuthing to get you a cite from the Vehicle Code.
As long as you leave a margin so as not to cross the line on a red, I don't see where that can possibly be illegal (though I've been admonished by a Judge for believeing so). It's kinda like thought crimes. Very problemic in my estimation.
For the record in my 34 years driving I have not once challenged a traffic ticket issued me by an officer {about 5 or so total} nor have I ever even tried to talk my way out of such. I mail in the fine and move on. Live Officers doing their job? Yes I support them issuing needed traffic tickets to dangerous drivers. Unmanned traffic cameras and no witness than a note in the mail? No person should be subject to such.
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