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Did we plough up the Garden of Eden?
First Post ^ | October 17, 2006

Posted on 10/17/2006 6:10:35 AM PDT by NYer

An archaeological dig may have uncovered ‘Eden’ in Turkey, says sean thomas

I am standing above an archaeological dig, on a hillside in southern Turkey. Beneath me, workmen are unearthing a sculpture of some sort of reptile (right). It is delicate and breathtaking. It is also part of the world's oldest temple.

If this sounds remarkable, it gets better. The archaeologist in charge of the dig believes that this artwork once stood in Eden. The archaeologist is Klaus Schmidt; the site is called Gobekli Tepe.

In academic circles, the astonishing discoveries at Gobekli Tepe have long been a talking point. Since the dig began in 1994, experts have made the journey to Kurdish Turkey to marvel at these 40-odd standing stones and their Neolithic carvings.

But what is new, and what makes this season's dig at Gobekli so climactic, is the quality of the latest finds - plus that mind-blowing thesis which links them to Paradise.

The thesis is this. Historians have long wondered if the Eden story is a folk memory, an allegory of the move from hunter-gathering to farming. Seen in this way, the Eden story describes how we moved from a life of relative leisure - literally picking fruit from the trees - to a harsher existence of ploughing and reaping.

And where did this change take place? Biologists now think the move to agriculture began in Kurdish Turkey. Einkorn wheat, a forerunner of the world's cereal species, has been genetically linked to here. Similarly, it now seems that wild pigs were first domesticated in Cayonu, just 60 miles from Gobekli.

This region also has Biblical connections, tying it closer to the Eden narrative. Muslims believe that Sanliurfa, a nearby city, is the Old Testament city of Ur. Harran, a town down the road, is mentioned in Genesis twice.

Even the topography of Gobekli Tepe is 'correct'. The Bible describes rivers descending from Paradise. Gobekli Tepe sits in the 'fertile crescent' between the rivers Tigris and Euphrates. The Bible also mentions mountains surrounding Eden. From the brow of Gobekli's hills you can see the Taurus range.

But how does this intoxicating

notion link to the architecture of Gobekli, and those astonishing finds?

Klaus Schmidt (left) explains: "Gobekli Tepe is staggeringly old. It dates from 10,000BC, before pottery and the wheel. By comparison, Stonehenge dates from 2,000BC. Our excavations also show it is not a domestic site, it is religious - the world's oldest temple. This site proves that hunter-gatherers were capable of complex art and organised religion, something no-one imagined before."

As for the temple's exact purpose, Schmidt gestures at a new discovery: a carving of a boar, and ducks flying into nets. "I think Gobekli Tepe celebrates the chase, the hunter-gatherer lifestyle. And why not? This life was rich and leisured, it gave them time enough to become accomplished sculptors."

So why did the hunters of Gobekli give up their agreeable existence? Schmidt indicates the arid brown hilltops. "Gathering together for religion meant that they needed to feed more people. So they started cultivating the wild grasses." But this switch to agriculture put pressure on the landscape; trees were cut down, the herds of game were dispersed. What was once a paradisaical land became a dustbowl.

Schmidt explains that this switchtook place around 8,000BC. Coincidentally, the temple of Gobekli Tepe was deliberately covered with earth around this time.

We may never know why the hunter-gatherers buried their 'temple in Eden'. Perhaps they were grieving for their lost innocence. What is unquestionable is the discoveries made in Gobekli Tepe, in the last few weeks, are some of the most exciting made anywhere in half a century.

Schmidt shows me some workmen scraping earth from a rock relief (left). It is marvellously detailed: it shows scorpions, waterbirds, and river life. I suddenly realise I am the first person other than an archaeologist to see it in 10,000 years.


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: anatolia; anthropology; archaeology; biblicalarcheology; catalhoyuk; catalhuyuk; einkornwheat; gobeklitepe; godsgravesglyphs; prehistory; religion; sanliurfa; turkey
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To: blam

Whilst searching for the origin of the star and crescent symbol, found this:


SUMERIANS ARE NOT INDIGENEOUS PEOPLE TO MESOPOTAMIA

It is well acknowledged that the Sumerians are not indigeneous people to Mesopotamia. In view of the existing close kinship of Sumerian and the Ural-Altaic languages and additionally many cultural evidences showing direct kinship betwen the Sumerians and the Central Asiatic peoples, it can be said that in order for this affinity to exists, the ancestors of the present day Altaic peoples (such as Turks and Hungarians) and those of the Sumerians must have been in direct contact with each other before Sumerians migrated into Mesopotamia. In other words, the Sumerians must have been a Central Asiatic people and must have been speaking the same or a dialect of a proto-Ural-Altaic language that Ural-Altaic peoples spoke then. That proto-Ural-Altaic language must have been either the same as the Sumerian or a version of the Sumerian language that the linguists have been able to read from thousands of Sumerian tablets. The very fact that the present day Turkish and Hungarian are Sumerian-like languages, is a strong indication that the speakers of these languages are the descendants of an Ural-Altaic people who must have been members of a group that the Sumerians were also a member.

http://www.compmore.net/~tntr/crescent_starb.html



101 posted on 10/17/2006 5:22:01 PM PDT by Fred Nerks ("Illegitimi non carborundum",)
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To: mdmathis6
"The story of King David is about switching from a nomadic life to one of agriculture"

I've read that's what the story of Cain & Abel was about.

102 posted on 10/17/2006 5:30:29 PM PDT by blam
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To: NYer
I think the Eden passages of the Bible describe the development of intellect as humans evolved. We are given the gift of knowledge and self realization (the only animal on earth that can say 'I am alive and someday I will die'), and earlier more apelike ancestors did not have this brain capacity.

The fact that this story is included in the Bible helps me to believe more strongly that the Bible was truly inspired by God and written by man, as ancient man could not have known nor constructed a perfect parable for the development and evolution of the intellect.
103 posted on 10/17/2006 5:41:33 PM PDT by mysterio
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To: Fred Nerks
"Whilst searching for the origin of the star and crescent symbol, found this: "

Yup. I think the Bible speaks of 'wise men from the east.'

Also, the Gilgamesh account of 'The Flood' is substancially older than the Bibical account. And, there is at least one that is older than Gilgamesh.

Voyages Of The Pyramid Builders

"The great pyramids of Egypt provide a wonderful glimpse of the artistry, skill and imagination of the ancient world. But pyramids can be found in India, China, Peru, Bolivia, Mexico and Ireland. In this provocative book, geologist Schoch (noted for his work in redating the Sphinx, which was recounted in his Voices of the Rocks) wonders how so many diverse cultures built such similar structures with similar purposes. Using geological, linguistic and geographical evidence, he contends that a protocivilization of pyramid-building peoples was driven out of its homeland, the Sundaland, which geologists believe connected Southeast Asia with Indonesia, by a rise in sea level caused by comet activity between 6000 and 4000 B.C. Fleeing their homeland, these peoples took their knowledge of pyramid building with them into Sumeria, Mesopotamia, Egypt, China and Peru. Schoch hypothesizes that the pyramids were built to reach into the skies and to penetrate the mystery of the heavens, source of catastrophe. Schoch also asserts that the pyramids point to unity and symbolize the deep concerns shared by all humans. Schoch builds his engrossing case on geological details of the pyramid sites he has examined around the world. In the end, however, even he admits his evidence of a Sundaland protocivilization is speculative. As controversial as this book is bound to be, Schoch's evocation of the pyramids forcefully reminds us of their enduring power as monuments to the spirit of human creativity."

104 posted on 10/17/2006 5:44:17 PM PDT by blam
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To: SunkenCiv

The 'baskets' at the top of the illustration remind me of similar, hand-held objects:

Winged Eagle-Headed Being (Genie); Neo-Assyrian period, reign of Ashurnasirpal II (r. 883–859 B.C.), Mesopotamia; excavated at Nimrud (ancient Kalhu), Alabaster (gypsum)

Also Oannes:


105 posted on 10/17/2006 5:55:15 PM PDT by Fred Nerks ("Illegitimi non carborundum",)
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The Story of Oannes


"At first they led a somewhat wretched existence and lived without rule after the manner of beasts. But, in the first year appeared an animal endowed with human reason, named Oannes, who rose from out of the Erythian Sea, at the point where it borders Babylonia. He had the whole body of a fish, but above his fish's head he had another head which was that of a man, and human feet emerged from beneath his fish's tail. He had a human voice, and an image of him is preserved unto this day. He passed the day in the midst of men without taking food; he taught them the use of letters, sciences and arts of all kinds. He taught them to construct cities, to found temples, to compile laws, and explained to them the principles of geometrical knowledge. He made them distinguish the seeds of the earth, and showed them how to collect the fruits; in short he instructed them in everything which could tend to soften human manners and humanize their laws. From that time nothing material has been added by way of improvement to his instructions. And when the sun set, this being Oannes, retired again into the sea, for he was amphibious. After this there appeared other animals like Oannes."


An account rendered by Berossus, a Babylonian priest of the 13th century B.C.


106 posted on 10/17/2006 6:06:01 PM PDT by Fred Nerks ("Illegitimi non carborundum",)
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To: blam
The impression from this article is that a cultured, agrarian civilization existed for probably millenia in the area now known as Turkey. These people may have been forced to leave, and either buried their buildings or perhaps a catastrophic event covered them with earth. (Till, probably.) Survivors moved south. The language connection would attest to this movement.

The Oannes legend suggests this culture, with its knowledge of agriculture and possibly cross-pollination, ultimately founded the establishment of an agricultural society in Mesopotamia, an area that was geographically altered in more recent times by rising sea levels. (see map # 100)

From the article:

"Klaus Schmidt (left) explains: "Gobekli Tepe is staggeringly old. It dates from 10,000BC, before pottery and the wheel. By comparison, Stonehenge dates from 2,000BC. Our excavations also show it is not a domestic site, it is religious - the world's oldest temple. This site proves that hunter-gatherers were capable of complex art and organised religion, something no-one imagined before."

I object to the use of the term 'hunter-gatherers' in this context...however, the date, 10,000BC makes sense (to me)

Remember, Amasis telling Solon on his visit to Egypt their written history went back 9,000 years? I believe we do the ancients a great insult by reducing the period we know as 'antiquity'.

Now, as for the little 'handbags' you might enjoy this:

Mythic Olmec figure with Jaguar mask on Quetzalcoatle, sculpture from the ancient Olmec site of La Venta (Mexico). Olmecs are considered to be the oldest Meso American Culture.

We don't know the half of it!

107 posted on 10/17/2006 7:03:14 PM PDT by Fred Nerks ("Illegitimi non carborundum",)
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To: Fred Nerks
"Remember, Amasis telling Solon on his visit to Egypt their written history went back 9,000 years? I believe we do the ancients a great insult by reducing the period we know as 'antiquity'."

I agree 100%.

And now, that you've mentioned Solon:

Where Is Atlantis? Sundaland Fits The Bill, Surely

108 posted on 10/17/2006 8:36:46 PM PDT by blam
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To: Fred Nerks
"Mythic Olmec figure with Jaguar mask on Quetzalcoatle, sculpture from the ancient Olmec site of La Venta (Mexico). Olmecs are considered to be the oldest Meso American Culture."

We don't know the half of it!

Tell me!

This statue was found in the Olmec Ruins at La Venta too.


109 posted on 10/17/2006 8:51:04 PM PDT by blam
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To: From many - one.

My vote is that the birds are Flamingos - check out the beak. At the top of the stone - Flamingos with their heads under their wings. And see the little Flamingos above them? Yup, gotta be Flamingos...


110 posted on 10/17/2006 9:25:52 PM PDT by compuguru (De Oppresso Liber)
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To: mysterio

The only thing is, the Hebrew language of Genesis is narrative prose...not that of a parable or a poem. The rest of scripture too, Old Testament and New, treat the Genesis stories as literal history, not a parable of the "evolution of the intellect."


111 posted on 10/17/2006 9:43:25 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: pepsi_junkie
Hold on a minute. Hunter-gatherers are inherently nomadic. They go where the food is. How could they build a temple of stone anywhere, and what good would it be since they couldnt expect to be in proximity to it much of the time?

Modern Americans have summer lodges for vacation and some have hunting cabins in other states; we don't need to reside in them or even near them year round. So why would you expect ancient cultures to have spent most of their time with any structure they built?

112 posted on 10/17/2006 10:08:02 PM PDT by piasa (Attitude Adjustments Offered Here Free of Charge)
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To: Fred Nerks
SUMERIANS ARE NOT INDIGENEOUS PEOPLE TO MESOPOTAMIA

It is well acknowledged that the Sumerians are not indigeneous people to Mesopotamia. In view of the existing close kinship of Sumerian and the Ural-Altaic languages and additionally many cultural evidences showing direct kinship betwen the Sumerians and the Central Asiatic peoples, it can be said that in order for this affinity to exists, the ancestors of the present day Altaic peoples (such as Turks and Hungarians) and those of the Sumerians must have been in direct contact with each other before Sumerians migrated into Mesopotamia. In other words, the Sumerians must have been a Central Asiatic people and must have been speaking the same or a dialect of a proto-Ural-Altaic language that Ural-Altaic peoples spoke then. That proto-Ural-Altaic language must have been either the same as the Sumerian or a version of the Sumerian language that the linguists have been able to read from thousands of Sumerian tablets. The very fact that the present day Turkish and Hungarian are Sumerian-like languages, is a strong indication that the speakers of these languages are the descendants of an Ural-Altaic people who must have been members of a group that the Sumerians were also a member.
Last I knew, Sumerian language is an isolate, a language with no known related languages, living or dead, in use or in script. It is only "related" to Turkish because both are agglutinative (as was Elamite, and whatever language the Indus Valley script conceals; also Dravidian, as well as Korean and other Asian languages).

That the Sumerians migrated (apparently en masse) into the area where they left their traces is evident (according to the late Samuel Noah Kramer) from the fact that their cities, as well as geographic names (including the great rivers) had non-Sumerian names that the Sumerians themselves used. Apparently those names were laid on the sites and rivers etc by some other linguistic group, the only trace of which are those names. Pretty cool.
113 posted on 10/17/2006 10:46:34 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Dhimmicrati delenda est! https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: sandyeggo
Agreed definitely. I just tend to take the attitude that if it can't be determined for absolute certain from what the bible says, we must give all options a chance. So I'm willing to look at this dig with the same interest as any other find - interest and skeptical optimism. :)

I think it's good to get a well-rounded view of scripture and judge for yourself. I just hear people repeating something over and over again and I get skeptical quickly...

But yes, in God all things are possible. And I am certain He knows were Eden is, so that's what really matters! :) I'll be sure to ask him whenever I make it up there. :)

114 posted on 10/17/2006 10:46:48 PM PDT by Kaylee Frye
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To: Interesting Times

Thanks for the ping. The findings are interesting, and the speculations are amusing. If the story of Eden is a racial memory, it is a memory of a long-ago time when there was plenty of food and not many people.

Hunting and gathering is a sustainable lifestyle only for a relatively small population in relatively a large area. A rich area may be a paradise for awhile, but population increase will eventually exhaust the local food supply.

It was only when people domesticated crops and cattle that population density could increase significantly, and they had enough food to feed the people who built temples.

The human race is still a race between food production and reproduction. For example, 1850's food production technology would feed only a small fraction of the 300 million people now in this country.


115 posted on 10/17/2006 11:12:14 PM PDT by zot (GWB -- the most slandered man of this decade)
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To: SunkenCiv

Here we go again, more research. Thanks.


116 posted on 10/18/2006 3:23:29 AM PDT by Fred Nerks ("Illegitimi non carborundum",)
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To: SunkenCiv

"The farmer more than I, the farmer more than I, The farmer what has he more than I?
If he gives me his black garment, I give him, the farmer, my black ewe,
If be gives me his white garment, I give him, the farmer, my white ewe,
If he pours me his first date-wine, I pour him, the farmer, my yellow milk,
If he pours me his good date-wine, I pour him, the farmer, my kisim-milk
If he pours me his 'heart-turning' date-wine, I pour him, the farmer, my bubbling milk,
If he pours me his water-mixed date-wine, I pour him, the farmer, my plant-milk,
If he gives me his good portions, I give him, the farmer, my nitirda-milk,
If he gives me his good bread, I give him, the farmer, my honey-cheese,
If he gives me his small beans, I give him my small cheeses;
More than he can eat, more than he can drink,
I pour out for him much oil, I pour out for him much milk;
More than I, the farmer, what has be more than I?"

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/sum/sum09.htm


117 posted on 10/18/2006 3:51:27 AM PDT by Fred Nerks ("Illegitimi non carborundum",)
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To: compuguru
Try googling ibis picts; they're my current first choice and their beaks are longer than those of flamingos.

And I've pretty much decided the mammal is a female lion (associated with a female deity later called Ishtar in that region.

Check this rhyton from KulTepe Note the feet and note the shape of the head.

118 posted on 10/18/2006 4:55:53 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: Fred Nerks
Am I interpreting the image wrong..the description is of a human hed above a fish's head, the image seems to be of a fish head above the human head. How about a hooded cape, with the hood thrown back sometimes?
119 posted on 10/18/2006 5:09:03 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: blam

Abel sacrificed the first and choicest of his lambs to God, Cain while he sacrificed of the fields did not do so whole heartedly and thus had his sacrifice rejected by God.
Abel had his sacrifice "blessed" of God while Cain received no blessing. Cain was upset by this and God reproved him also warning him of "the sin that was at the door" as he had begun thinking dark thoughts towards his brother. Thus Cain committed the first recorded murder against his brother Cain. The sacrifice of the lambs presages the sacrifice of the true LAMB OF GOD, as God was indicating that only the shed blood of innocence can redeem the guilty of sin.

I don't see how this story relates to a switch to agriculture. Tending a known flock in a known range with domesticated sheep is animal husbandry and could be considered a part of agriculture. It depends on how one ultimately defines "nomadic" I suppose!


120 posted on 10/18/2006 6:26:36 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Proof against evolution:"Man is the only creature that blushes, or needs to" M.Twain)
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