Posted on 08/09/2006 12:23:46 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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In writing my book on suicide attackers, I had researchers scour Lebanese sources to collect martyr videos, pictures and testimonials and the biographies of the Hezbollah bombers. Of the 41, we identified the names, birth places and other personal data for 38. Shockingly, only eight were Islamic fundamentalists. Twenty-seven were from leftist political groups like the Lebanese Communist Party and the Arab Socialist Union. Three were Christians, including a female high-school teacher with a college degree. All were born in Lebanon.
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Robert A. Pape, a professor of political science at the University of Chicago, is the author of “Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism.”
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
When it comes to these efforts, I suspect they are driven by the same folks that are driving A.N.S.W.E.R. in the United States. It's a global effort to destroy governments that oppose the old socialist cabal. The leaders or members of the old Orange (I believe that was what it was called) party in Europe would be highly suspect.
I am by no means convinced that communists play a significant role in the suicide bombings in the Middle-East, but that is a gray area.
Do socialists/communists promote instability where they can? I believe they do. I still believe they are tapping into old hatreds and the radical Muslim element. And so I suppose you could say that those who play along are communist sympathizers (very loosely IMO), but I would say they are still Muslim at the core. I would say that they would be executing these efforts on their own if not for some instigation from outside the region.
It has been my premise for a long time that there is a unified effort that drives many of those behind illegal immigration, those behind the leftist civil unrest in the United States, the socialist movement across Europe and even the Middle-Eastern nations. But I do not buy into this writer's premise that communists, not Muslims are the problem as it applies to suicide bombings.
The Muslims are not being brainwashed to do what they are doing. They are intent on what they have been doing due to their own long-standing hatreds. Can that be exploited? Pehraps so. That certainly DOES NOT alleviate the underlying truth of who are carrying out the attacks, and what the major driving force always has been and remains to be.
Well, that's how I see it.
Please see post 41 for my thoughts on this. I believe we're pretty much on the same page, except for degrees.
Thank you.
I wonder which of Christ's commands he thinks they were obeying. I don't find "explosives/demolition/murder" in my synopsis of Bible Doctrine.
If all would keep that in mind many things would become clearer.
Thank you syriacus.
It is a bit of a chicken or the egg thing.
However that Islamic terror groups were founded by communists is indisputable. That they have been supported, armed, trained and funded by communists is indisputable.
While most terrorists in the ME are Islamic, most in South America are "good" Catholics.
This does raise the question of where the true root of international terror lies.
Even if we could wave a wand and the entire ME suddenly became Buddhist the problem of Communist supported terror in the area would not go away.
If you'll just consider the current situation with Hezbollah, you'll realize they are supported, financed and armed by other Muslims. Thanks for the comments.
The Muslim religion is driving this. You may not want to hear it, but it is.
Who has been paying the Palestinian's bills? In a word, Europe.
Sorry to have to disagree so stridently. Take care.
Yes, but they were founded by the USSR and frankly right now I would not be surprised if Russia was slipping them aid. Putin has come out in their support.
The Muslim religion is driving this
Terrorism? No. The current war that Israel is fighting? Yes.
Please understand that I am looking at this on a much broader scope then you are.
When the IRA and Hezbollah train together and then when the IRA goes to Columbia to train FARC how to be better killers there is far more then Islam driving this. And that is something you may not want to hear but it is so.
Who has been paying the Palestinian's bills? In a word, Europe.
Europe has stupidly given them money yes. But Russia and China both supply arms and training to the PLO and Hammas.
As it relates to Israel in the Middle East, the Muslim religion is most certainly driving the terrorism. From birth these kids are taught that Israelis are dogs or monkeys. Families teach this to their children. Schools teach it to them. Neighbors teach it to them. The media teaches it to them. The mosques teach it to them. You would have to believe that Communists took over the Muslim religion to retain your believe that Communism is the cause for terrorism in the Middle East. It simply isn't. Has it had some influence? I believe that it has, but the idea that the death of communism world-wide would usher in the end of strife in the Middle-East is ludacrist.
As for the Muslim religion driving terrorism around the planet, I've never claimed that.
From what I have read Socialist/Marxist groups had been influential with the IRA. I still don't think the IRA would have ceased to exist without that influence. The Palestinians did help train IRA operatives at some point. The IRA was not training the PLO.
Was the old USSR a destabalizing influence? Of course it was. It did have it's fingers in a lot of things, from the Middle-East, to Africa, across Europe and into South America. Perhaps the USSRs relationship with Syria was a catalyst for the Hezbollah and Hamas. I don't really know. That can be a catalyst for the development of Hezbollah. Communism still isn't the driving force. Hezbollah is not carrying out these acts because they are avowed Communists, intent on bringing Communism to the evil Jews.
This is a religious war. The Muslims are intent on ridding the Middle-East of the infidels. They are not intent on ridding the Middle-East of the evil capitalists. Capitalism is alive and well in the Middle-East.
I would suspect that you and I have a lot more in common on this subject than our discussion implies. I do think the old USSR was a major player in the old days. Russia still may be more of a player than we realize. I simply cannot sign on to the idea that Communism and not the Muslim religion is driving the Middle-Eastern conflict.
I believe that it has, but the idea that the death of communism world-wide would usher in the end of strife in the Middle-East is ludacrist.
The death of it? No. But certainly a major reduction. If you look at the first part of the 1990's you see a sharp downturn in terrorism and other related conflicts. Russia was too busy with it's own problems to meddle in the ME. As a communist power Russia was a major player in the ME but even prior, under the Czars Russia kept the pot stirred. They called it "The Great Game." That they were playing with lives didn't seem to matter to them.
With the fall of the USSR and with Boris Yeltsin in power things calmed down considerably. No all was not quiet but it was calmer.
The IRA was not training the PLO.
Sadly not so.
For your review. Perhaps it will explain better my point in this discussion.
The PLO predated the IRA. The Six Day War had already taken place before the modern IRA came into being. The Palestinians had been carrying out terrorism since before 1948. The IRA didn't teach it.
What bothers me most about your position, is that it seems leveled at excusing Muslim treachery.
These folks may have accepted help from the old USSR, but they are Islamists, not communists.
Hey, that's my take. No ofense taken BTW. Thanks for the link.
I am excusing no one and that is my point to say "they are just Islamist" and ignore the fact that they are also Communist means that you miss a basic piece of the puzzle.
Let me give you an example.
Russia >>>>Iran<<<<< North Korea<<< China
Russia>>>>Syria
Russia>>>>>Iraq.(Pre OIF)
What is the name that keeps popping up?
Who is supplying these countries with arms, technology and equipment? Why are Russian scientist in all these countries?
Venezuela likely to cut ties with Israel
What is a nominally Catholic Communist doing supporting Hezbollah?
There is far more going on below the surface then just a simple religious war.
From what I have read, the IRA was around prior to and during the 1920s, but having achieved some milestone during that time, it basicly phased out.
I don't get the impression that the IRA of 1969, had any connection to a prior group. It merely took the name.
That's my understanding.
I don't deny your "any port in a storm" connections. I still reject out of hand that the terrorists in the Middle-East are communist. They may get technology from Russia. They may get moral support and training, mainly from the cold war erra on the training, but I still say they are first and foremost Muslims. I do not support the theory that they are avowed Communists.
As for South America, I am not as unwilling to entertain a communist idiology there. Manuel Noriego, the terrorist insurgents in El Salvador and now Venezuela are acceptable examples.
It may be that some of the same operatives do raise their heads in the Middle-East from time to time. I think Yasser Arafat was joined at the hip with Syrian, Lybian and other sympathizers. Did that make him first and foremost a Communist? Absoutely not.
Thanks for the comments.
The IRA has been around for over eighty year with various splits and splinter groups which all are calling themselves "IRA" to confuse the issue.
Here is another article focusing on the PLO and their Communist roots.
Communist tactics of the Palestinian Authority
When you speak of communist terror in South America you need to include the ChiCom supported group "Shining Path" in Peru and FARC in Colombia.
BTW the IRA helped train FARC to, among other things, shoot mortars which resulted in the death of 119 people when they shelled a church in Bellavista Colombia.
I know the ME gets a lot of attention and justifiably so but there is a whole network of terror groups, 99% communist to some degree that are working together around the world. And most of it goes unreported.
Yea right and the Pope is not Catholic.
As I understand it, most of the folks in Ireland reject the notion that the current IRA is the same IRA from the 1920s. In fact the IRA from the 1920s is refered to as the old-IRA in deference to todays IRA.
Some resources to seem to try to maintain continuity, but I think that's a bit of a stretch.
We do agree that there is a terrorist network around the world that is communist/socialist driven. That still doesn't make the Muslim extremists (more accurately called - IslamoFascists) Communist rather than Muslim adherents.
We agree on most of it. And we agree that it goes under-reported. Digging into the group A.N.S.W.E.R. makes it pretty clear that they are all one big happy family. Even the PLO is supported by this group, and possibly even supported by the PLO. That still doesn't mean the PLO or Hezbollah have sworn off Islam and now only follow Communism.
You take care.
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