Posted on 07/31/2006 5:09:06 AM PDT by SJackson
LOL ok sorry but its your fault you have no details in your profile so I don't know who you are or what your knowledge is.
If you were military you would of known about the long term bases that are to be leased from the Iraqi government.
LOL you didn't think we were going to pack are bags and shut up shop at endex did you.
These plans amongst others were detailed in the Pentagon Review I think it was 7th or 8th of February 2006.
In fact that review details what the media termed America's Long War.
It identifies four priority areas.
1)Defeating terrorist networks.
2)Defending the homeland in depth(NMAOI).
3)Shaping the choice of countries at strategic crossroads.
4)Preventing hostile states and non-state actors from acquiring or using weapons of mass destruction.
Happy Reading
Gosh you make it sound so easy.
And you really think Israel will do this, to block after block in city after city and what happens if its women and children, you miles away might be able to say so what they deserve it.
Take my word for it it is different when you are face to face with it.
Action such as that would break the Israeli nation.
You are asking them to carry out policies similar to that carried out by the Germans in the 1940 to 1942 period in Poland, at that time they were not executing the Jews of Poland, that activity was being carried out by the Einsatzgruppen and it was mainly shooting Jews of the Soviet Union to make room for the new arrivals. There was a pecking order while everybody hated the western Jews there was an idea that they could be put to use while those of the Soviet variety were earmarked for destruction straight away.
No in Poland the Jews were being cleared out block by block as they started to empty the towns and cities of Jews and Poles in the ares to be annexed to the Greater German Reich.
That would play well in the media especial in Israel.
And what if say Syria wont take any of these refugees in can you imagine refugees stranded in the border area a replay of the Zbaszyn deportation where Jews of polish origins were kicked out of Germany but not allowed into Poland.
I have served in countries where expulsions ethnic religious cleaning has occurred, not actually taken part just been deployed there.
In all but a few cases the local authorities had to employ street scrum, criminal gangs and other assorted para military groups to do the (PRE) population reduction exercise.
It takes a special type of man to be able to manhandle civilians, children old women old enough to be granny, children young enough to be your son or daughter (I have both).
I have yet to meet a member of the IDF serving and ex who I think is capable of it.
Maybe we should form PRE groups and recruit like minded individuals such as your good self who wont be bothered by such things.
If Israel doesn't want to win, it won't. It is really quite simple. The option of living at peace with muslim neighbors has been removed by the muslims themselves as does not exist. They can live at war with them, or they can clear what they intend to keep. As long as every Israeli action is just the prelude to another Israeli withdrawal, they will never stop coming. Why on earth would they? They just win.
And oh, as for the name calling, who cares? Israelis have already shown patience beyond the saints and been called worse than Nazis for their pains. If you think name calling and labels and imaginary comparisons enters the business at all anymore, well it doesn't.
To you it wont, but I am not talking about outsiders calling the Jews names, I am talking about activity you talk quite glibly about will strike at the Jewish soul.
I have quite a few friends from Israel mainly military and we have discussed this at length, especially after my first tour of Bosnia where the only people I could talk about what I had seen were people of the Jewish faith.
LOL very funny, that is when someone says this is not a million miles from what the Nazies did or are trying to achieve.
Notice I said that the IDF will not carry out the activities you mentioned because they are as unlike the Nazies as you can get.
And it is well more than a million miles away. Nazis didn't make peace offers for 40 years, withdraw from territories, encourage free elections, collect and transfer taxes, drop leaflets before military operations, etc.
When the US bombed whatever it wanted to to win its wars, it did not make the US Nazis either. Etc.
If the people in the territories and in southern Lebanon were voting for peaceful regimes, condemning their fighters and terrorists, forming militias to stamp them out, calling for them to cease their attacks on Israel and release captives, etc, one might regard them as innocent bystanders caught in a crossfire between muslim nutjobs and an Israel legitimately defending itself.
But they aren't and they don't. They fully support rockets being fired at Israel civilians, want war, and would just also like to wage it from a position of impunity. Which is hopelessly unrealistic and not morally worth the slightest consideration. If they wage war on civilians - and they do - they deserve whatever they get, back.
Nor would there be any necessity to deliberate measures beyond ordinary military offensive on the one hand, and no tolerance for hostile supporters of terrorists on the other. It is not like they can eat the rice and lentils stockpiled in their own houses for more than a few days. When you pass through the area, they come out or they starve. When they come out, you order them out of Israel, as not citizens of Israel and in no way loyal to it.
As for where they go, they can go wherever they like, but they can't stay here. It has been offered and tried too many times, and the condition was simple - police up your murdering nutjobs. They declined to do so, voted for more murdering nutjobs, and applauded more murder. So they lose, no more chances. Their lands are forfeit. Their lives are spared if they leave because they are no great threat on the other side of barbed wire and minefields and MG posts and registered artillery. And only safety is sought, not revenge.
None of which have anything to do with Nazi anything.
It is simple a matter of treating people according to their actual present behavior. Instead of entirely pretend fantasies about how nice they might be in principle, if only they weren't the evil bastards they actually are.
This division has been going on since Bill Clinton became President. This was done deliberately by him and his co president. WOT doesn't just include the jihadists of Islam, it is also being fought against us by the left. Both must be defeated.
I was thinking the same thing about Lieberman. I cannot forget that he went along with that outrage in Florida, especially the tossing of the military votes. That is no statesman in my eyes either.
And it is something Israel will not want to do either.
In fact only despots Africa, European Nazi, Communists have seen depopulating whole regions and annexing them as a legitimate means of war.
And you are asking troops to carry out these actions, I don't know how many IDF you know but I have met quite a few I have always admired them for there professionalism, decency and honor.
But I will let as IDF man sum up what I am saying From a newspaper just to remind you that there is a huge gulf between decent men in uniform and those evil bastards whose actions you I think wish us to emulate.
Sgt. Ron Yehushua, 21, of Jerusalem, said there were moments of beauty in war, too.
Despite the brutal carnage he witnessed, he said the image etched most deeply in his mind was that of the Lebanese family he encountered in the midst of battle. He said he shared some of the little food he had with them and handed a young girl a piece of candy.
"That's the bravest thing I did," he said. "I was afraid that in war people lose their humanity, that they become bad. I will carry that memory with me because it reminded me that I am human, and that I am fighting for peace."
Read it and weep.
Half a dozen very loud explosions in southern Beirut last night and the alligator crawl saying Israel has two more days, or the weekend to wrap this up. So what happens if Hezbollah lobs a few big ones at Telaviv, in spite of dangling cease-fire talks in front of Israel like a carrot?
You can be as kind as you like about it, but Palestinians who vote for Hamas are not going to live at peace with Israelis on the same land. Nor are they innocent.
Puppies dogs are cute, flowers are pretty, sugar is sweet. Whoppee doo, none of it has anything to do with the actual problem.
People concretely unwilling to live with others, who daily want them all murdered and rejoice at it, cannot be cajoled into loving kindness with a piece of candy. It is an utter delusion.
Israelis require sufficient territory to ensure their security, and can't get it while murderers live on that territory. They can eject them, or they can stand around and die.
The same unreality continues in practices like leaving the borders open for the sake of trade and daily work. After a couple of car bombs, perhaps. After literally decades, the last of which has seen non-stop suicide bombings, it is just clinical denial of reality.
They won't live with Jews. Jews can't live with them. Either Jews live alone or they don't live. You don't have another choice in the matter.
The muslims do - they've been left that choice, and they'd still be left that choice. They can change their behavior any time they like. It is entirely voluntary in every detail. But they are free to be bastards. And if they choose to be, treating them like puppy dogs is stark raving mad.
Yes I do as I have stated over and over again.
1) It is unworkable from a military point of view.
2) There is no way Israel will carry out such a operation.
From the military point of view.
Clearing an annexing a piece of land, this will require large scale military resources to clean the land, move the population and defend that land and border.
Problem 1 where will the population go, well into the land not occupied which will be a breeding ground for new Islamic groups to continue striking at Israel.
Israel will then be forced to occupy even more land, carry out the same operation displace even more people create more camps.
Displacing all these people first from Lebanon, to where Syria, Jordan, both these countries have Islamic movements, such an action could destabilize these nations leading to Islamic revolutions Syria is halfway there.
How far will Israel have to go occupy the whole of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan, Egypt is having problems as well there has been an increases in extremist Islamic activity in that country, what happens if that country falls and used as a springboard to terrorist activity.
Number two.
You are talking about a depopulation operation, I don't think you know how incredibly complex they are.
What are the Rules of Engagement.
What happens if a town refuses to budge a whole city made of up civilians, men , women and children. What action can you take.
Its easy for you sitting at a PC to talk glibly about such things but to carry out a operation in reality is whole different matter.
And just a reminder we are talking about Lebanon, not about Palestinian.
Too true.
Col. William Ivey US Army.
What I have been saying here, Iraq is the key.
Israel needs to run a holding operation as they have for the last almost 60 years, but this time we are in the driving seat.Remove Iran, who is going to support the terrorists with money and resources they will have to make peace terms with Israel.
Great post, I wish I'd written it. I've put up several other postings saying much the same, in less eloquent language.
The War for Western Freedom can only be won if we outfight Islam on THEIR terms, not ours.
Islam - the creed, and the masses that live under its spell - remind me of the film, "The Terminator" (first one). There is a scene where the [lady] protaganist is warned [to the effect] that "he won't stop, he keeps coming, he doesn't care, he won't listen"..... and so on. The movie Terminator will keep trying to kill you until _HE_ is destroyed. Not negotiated with. Not defeated. Destroyed.
So it is with the growing threat to The West that Islam presents.
Islam sees this as "them or us". Stark. Plain and simple. And unchangeable (remember, the Quran is the unchangeable world of Allah, as handed down through his only true prophet, Mohammed).
There will be no negotiating, no "peace", no accomodation. There can ultimately be only one outcome.
What outcome is that?
- John
Oh, the left blames Bush for not filling the vacuum left in Lebanon by Slick forcing Israel to withdraw from Lebanon. It's never the fault of their beloved UN.
It is utterly trivial from a military point of view. Every army in history was and is capable of doing it, and they have done it successfully countless times. The IDF would be nicer about it than most, and more efficient and professional, if they cared to be.
"There is no way Israel will carry out such a operation."
Under its present leadership and circumstances, the only people on earth they will forcefully evict at gunpoint are Israelis. In case you just forgot, the IDF was evicting civilians at gunpoint all of a month and a half ago.
"Clearing an annexing a piece of land, this will require large scale military resources to clean the land"
You send a division or so through a town, yes. Then you do the next one. Then the next one. You need a thin cordon in other places but you need that every day, anyway.
"move the population"
You still aren't getting it, and are still arguing against a straw man because you can't face the argument in front of you. The IDF isn't going to transport anybody, or do anything about camps, or anything remotely like it. They announce that the populace must leave, that they have 48 hours, and then they commence military operations. As for tactics, plenty of those below, all of them quite straightforward and easy.
"and defend that land and border."
Israel has to defend all of its borders until the end of time regardless. Moving them 50 miles makes no difference in that. Not having to police the entire interior quite so much, on the other hand, helps immensely. As does the actual reduction in violence inside Israel, which is of course the point.
"where will the population go"
Anywhere they can or they please. Some perhaps to Lebanon, some to Jordan, some to Syria, some to Egypt. Up to them. If they authorities in those places want to put troops and barbed wire on the border and resist by force, let them. Send cameras.
"which will be a breeding ground for new Islamic groups"
I hate to break it to ya, but the entire middle east is such a breeding ground, and it has already recruited approximately 80% of the population that might be affected by any of this. They all want Israel destroyed. That isn't going to change, come hell or high water. What can change is their ability to do anything about it. Militaries do not aim at wills because those are always within the other side's control. They aim at abilities, at power, at means. Because without those you can be as enraged as you like, without being dangerous.
"Israel will then be forced to occupy even more land"
lol. Listen to yourself. Um, 9 out of 10 powers throughout history would have said "get to" rather than "forced to". It isn't a downside, even if Israel is one of the tenth.
"carry out the same operation"
If they want more, by all means. It is entirely up to them.
"create more camps."
Straw man again, there are no camps involved, just your smears and imaginings.
"such an action could destabilize these nations leading to Islamic revolutions"
Oh no, save us! They might get mad! Then, instead of sending their children with bombs strapped to their stomaches to blow up teenagers down at the pizza parlor, and firing 4000 rockets indiscrimately at any town within range, they might - well, chant or something. They already voted for Hamas, braintrust. Hezbollah's approval rating there, is over twice George W. Bush's here. They have already chosen war, it isn't something they are holding back on. Stop worrying about making madmen mad, and start worrying about making them impotent.
"How far will Israel have to go"
Well, if in the end they have to go clear to the Persian gulf, they get some oil. Entirely up to the muslims. Yes you read that right.
"what happens if that country falls"
Then either they decide they like continuing to live and lay off Israel anyway, or they decide they want to die and Israel will have to kill all of them that want it. When an enemy decides he is ready to die trying to kill you, you kill him or you get killed yourself. The option in the matter is not yours, but his. All you can do is pay attention to how he actually chooses.
Israel is not in charge of the domestic politics of all the surrounding countries. If rulers in those places know how to keep their seats, bully for them. If they don't, cry me a river - who cares? If the thugs who replace them are worse, then you fight those too. People are free to be whatever level of bastard they desire, and no power on earth can take that freedom from them or exercise it for them. But you don't have to lose to it, because you aren't powerless yourself.
"I don't think you know how incredibly complex they are."
Utterly trivial, that's how complicated. All your imaginary complexity is purely the result of teh standing farce, "lawyers go to war".
"What are the Rules of Engagement."
Those who obey the orders of the authorities may take with them whatever they wish and can, and need not be molested in any way. Those who simply disobey the authorities will be dealt with easily by administrative means - see below. Those who actively resist by force will be shot out of hand.
"What happens if a town refuses to budge"
You shut off the water. Then you salt the wells. Then you wait. No food enters either. Everyone is free to leave. Any relief folks who like, may set up shop over any border, but not in Israel.
Gee that was complicated wasn't it? So impossibly undoable.
It takes a vast smoothly functioning infrastructure to support an idle population of ingrates doing nothing all day but plan new ways to kill Jews. Break it into tiny pieces. No UN aid, no EU aid, no money, no phones, no power, no water, no trucks bringing in food, no protection for anybody's property (anyone who likes can loot whatever they like from anyone they like). Smash the doors to every shop with bulldozers and shove the contents onto the streets.
You can live anywhere you like, but you can't stay here.
Incidentally, a million Lebanese have already fled from the fighting. Your idea that they all want to stay and be bombed to show their defiance is not backed up by the reality.
As for where, any place from which attacks originate. Gaza if Gazans fire mortars into Israel, the west bank if west bankers send suicide bombers into Israel, Jerusalem is crowds stone Jews at the wall, Lebanon for 20 miles or for 50 miles or up to the Christian sector if they want it, as much as they want, if rockets keep flying across the northern border.
Wherever they want it, as often as they want it, as many as cheer it all on. Smash every aspect of their lives to matchwood and bid them go. If they get mad and take a poke at you for it, blow them away.
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