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To: JasonC
re :You are arguing against a straw man because you don't have anything to say about my actual argument or position.

Yes I do as I have stated over and over again.

1) It is unworkable from a military point of view.

2) There is no way Israel will carry out such a operation.

From the military point of view.

Clearing an annexing a piece of land, this will require large scale military resources to clean the land, move the population and defend that land and border.

Problem 1 where will the population go, well into the land not occupied which will be a breeding ground for new Islamic groups to continue striking at Israel.

Israel will then be forced to occupy even more land, carry out the same operation displace even more people create more camps.

Displacing all these people first from Lebanon, to where Syria, Jordan, both these countries have Islamic movements, such an action could destabilize these nations leading to Islamic revolutions Syria is halfway there.

How far will Israel have to go occupy the whole of Lebanon, Syria and Jordan, Egypt is having problems as well there has been an increases in extremist Islamic activity in that country, what happens if that country falls and used as a springboard to terrorist activity.

Number two.

You are talking about a depopulation operation, I don't think you know how incredibly complex they are.

What are the Rules of Engagement.

What happens if a town refuses to budge a whole city made of up civilians, men , women and children. What action can you take.

Its easy for you sitting at a PC to talk glibly about such things but to carry out a operation in reality is whole different matter.

And just a reminder we are talking about Lebanon, not about Palestinian.

134 posted on 08/04/2006 6:13:42 AM PDT by tonycavanagh
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To: tonycavanagh
"1) It is unworkable from a military point of view."

It is utterly trivial from a military point of view. Every army in history was and is capable of doing it, and they have done it successfully countless times. The IDF would be nicer about it than most, and more efficient and professional, if they cared to be.

"There is no way Israel will carry out such a operation."

Under its present leadership and circumstances, the only people on earth they will forcefully evict at gunpoint are Israelis. In case you just forgot, the IDF was evicting civilians at gunpoint all of a month and a half ago.

"Clearing an annexing a piece of land, this will require large scale military resources to clean the land"

You send a division or so through a town, yes. Then you do the next one. Then the next one. You need a thin cordon in other places but you need that every day, anyway.

"move the population"

You still aren't getting it, and are still arguing against a straw man because you can't face the argument in front of you. The IDF isn't going to transport anybody, or do anything about camps, or anything remotely like it. They announce that the populace must leave, that they have 48 hours, and then they commence military operations. As for tactics, plenty of those below, all of them quite straightforward and easy.

"and defend that land and border."

Israel has to defend all of its borders until the end of time regardless. Moving them 50 miles makes no difference in that. Not having to police the entire interior quite so much, on the other hand, helps immensely. As does the actual reduction in violence inside Israel, which is of course the point.

"where will the population go"

Anywhere they can or they please. Some perhaps to Lebanon, some to Jordan, some to Syria, some to Egypt. Up to them. If they authorities in those places want to put troops and barbed wire on the border and resist by force, let them. Send cameras.

"which will be a breeding ground for new Islamic groups"

I hate to break it to ya, but the entire middle east is such a breeding ground, and it has already recruited approximately 80% of the population that might be affected by any of this. They all want Israel destroyed. That isn't going to change, come hell or high water. What can change is their ability to do anything about it. Militaries do not aim at wills because those are always within the other side's control. They aim at abilities, at power, at means. Because without those you can be as enraged as you like, without being dangerous.

"Israel will then be forced to occupy even more land"

lol. Listen to yourself. Um, 9 out of 10 powers throughout history would have said "get to" rather than "forced to". It isn't a downside, even if Israel is one of the tenth.

"carry out the same operation"

If they want more, by all means. It is entirely up to them.

"create more camps."

Straw man again, there are no camps involved, just your smears and imaginings.

"such an action could destabilize these nations leading to Islamic revolutions"

Oh no, save us! They might get mad! Then, instead of sending their children with bombs strapped to their stomaches to blow up teenagers down at the pizza parlor, and firing 4000 rockets indiscrimately at any town within range, they might - well, chant or something. They already voted for Hamas, braintrust. Hezbollah's approval rating there, is over twice George W. Bush's here. They have already chosen war, it isn't something they are holding back on. Stop worrying about making madmen mad, and start worrying about making them impotent.

"How far will Israel have to go"

Well, if in the end they have to go clear to the Persian gulf, they get some oil. Entirely up to the muslims. Yes you read that right.

"what happens if that country falls"

Then either they decide they like continuing to live and lay off Israel anyway, or they decide they want to die and Israel will have to kill all of them that want it. When an enemy decides he is ready to die trying to kill you, you kill him or you get killed yourself. The option in the matter is not yours, but his. All you can do is pay attention to how he actually chooses.

Israel is not in charge of the domestic politics of all the surrounding countries. If rulers in those places know how to keep their seats, bully for them. If they don't, cry me a river - who cares? If the thugs who replace them are worse, then you fight those too. People are free to be whatever level of bastard they desire, and no power on earth can take that freedom from them or exercise it for them. But you don't have to lose to it, because you aren't powerless yourself.

"I don't think you know how incredibly complex they are."

Utterly trivial, that's how complicated. All your imaginary complexity is purely the result of teh standing farce, "lawyers go to war".

"What are the Rules of Engagement."

Those who obey the orders of the authorities may take with them whatever they wish and can, and need not be molested in any way. Those who simply disobey the authorities will be dealt with easily by administrative means - see below. Those who actively resist by force will be shot out of hand.

"What happens if a town refuses to budge"

You shut off the water. Then you salt the wells. Then you wait. No food enters either. Everyone is free to leave. Any relief folks who like, may set up shop over any border, but not in Israel.

Gee that was complicated wasn't it? So impossibly undoable.

It takes a vast smoothly functioning infrastructure to support an idle population of ingrates doing nothing all day but plan new ways to kill Jews. Break it into tiny pieces. No UN aid, no EU aid, no money, no phones, no power, no water, no trucks bringing in food, no protection for anybody's property (anyone who likes can loot whatever they like from anyone they like). Smash the doors to every shop with bulldozers and shove the contents onto the streets.

You can live anywhere you like, but you can't stay here.

Incidentally, a million Lebanese have already fled from the fighting. Your idea that they all want to stay and be bombed to show their defiance is not backed up by the reality.

As for where, any place from which attacks originate. Gaza if Gazans fire mortars into Israel, the west bank if west bankers send suicide bombers into Israel, Jerusalem is crowds stone Jews at the wall, Lebanon for 20 miles or for 50 miles or up to the Christian sector if they want it, as much as they want, if rockets keep flying across the northern border.

Wherever they want it, as often as they want it, as many as cheer it all on. Smash every aspect of their lives to matchwood and bid them go. If they get mad and take a poke at you for it, blow them away.

139 posted on 08/04/2006 5:42:15 PM PDT by JasonC
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To: tonycavanagh
Oh and when the European press has a cow and their diplomats shake with rage and shower you with their denunciations, offer to pay for a plane ticket on any European national airline for any Arab who wants to go to France or Germany and England - assuming those will of course bend over backwards to take them all in!
142 posted on 08/04/2006 5:51:30 PM PDT by JasonC
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