The Twin Myths of Eurabia

The Brussels Journal ^ | 07/23/2006

[Republicain]

However, Europe's history does make Turkey seem very much part of your continent. That's absolutely untrue ! A contrario, Europe' history was a constant fight against the Ottoman Empire and his islamic values. Do you ignore the first siege of Vienna (1529), the battle of Lepante (1571), the second siege of Vienna (1683) and so on ? To be a constant ennemy of Christian Europe don't really makes Turkey a part of modern Europe, even after the Ataturk's reforms of the 20's.

[wtc911]

You're kidding but I'll play for one round...one only has to look at the utter failure over the past decades of turks to assimilate into or be accepted by the Germans to see the nonsense of your assertion the Europeans consider turks to be Europeans too.

You are a propogandist.

[Jedi Master Pikachu]

You shouldn't make wild guesses. And the question could have been real--why would people consider Turkey to be nonEuropean.

And as for you reply (which was a tad rude, but people have varying rudeness levels), it isn't very convincing. So the Turks aren't assimilating in Germany. So? Are Germans the epitomy of what is or isn't European? (two rhetorical questions). There are people in east France who still use German (i.e. they haven't assimilated into French culture).

if you were referring to honor killings, though, you have point. However, Turks are supposed to be--and by most media accounts they are--very liberal and secular.

Most Turks are as Muslim as most West Europeans are Christian--not very. And also, Turkey is at least if not more European than Russia, and while many Europeans will cut out Russia from Europe, most Americans won't, and judging from your username, you seem to be American.

[Republicain]

BTW, in the United States, sort of opposite to your (Europe and Turkey) situation, some people cut out Mexico and Central America from North America because those countries a not as culturally as similar as the United States and Canada, when those countries are definitely part of geographic North America.

Are you considering that the natural geographical issues are what draw the borders of civilisations ? This is absurd. Especially in Europe with his more than 3 thousand years old history. Look at a map of Europe an you will see that most of the borders are not geographical but historical, political and religious. The actual border between Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina, for instance, marks exactly the border between the Christian world (croatia) and the Ottoman Empire in the 17th century. Less than 10% of Turkey is on the geographical Europe. Is it enough to say that Turkey is a European country ? Of course not ! Things are far more complicated.

[redgolum]

To paraphrase Roland in the Dark Tower book series, "We have forgotton our fathers' faces."

We have. The West as a whole took the wide road to ruin. For the most part, there is not the population to turn back now, and the biggest hope is that Western civilization will survive in some sort of hiding place until the time is right again. Much like the Irish monks preserved a remnant, hopefully somewhere one will be preserved.

Because Europe and probably North America will soon pass into a dark age.

[Jedi Master Pikachu]

Most of Europe's borders are political--a result of Europe's many, many intracontinental wars. Culturally, France has the standard French, the people of Brittany, some Germans in Alsace, and some Basques in southwestern France. Switzerland is a famous mix of cultures, and iberia seems about to fracture from continuing autonomy for its already autonomous regions. Religiously, most modern Europe is de facto atheist--as is much of Turkey, incidentally--but even historically and traditionally Germany is Protestand and Roman Catholic; same with Switzerland. The United Kingdom is Anglican and Presbyterian with some Roman Catholics and others, etc.

Granted, if a Muslim (even one that is only Muslim de jure) country tried to become the fifty-first state of the United States, all Americans should oppose that, and so it is more than reasonable that Europeans would respond the same way. But this isn't about membership into the EU, but rather is Turkey part of Europe. Yes it is, and so is Albania and Bosnia. Cuba is a part of North America although it is a dictatorship that would probably nuke the United States if it had the weapons and there was no threat of retaliation.

[Jedi Master Pikachu]

P.S. You obviously would probably have a lot of knowledge about Europe, but it is also improbable that the news and media reaching the United States is so far off as you seem to purport.

[Jedi Master Pikachu]

P.P.S. There are a lot of freepers who are against the breakup of the former Yugoslavia. They--being Europeans--would have been in support of a nation not divided by religion.

[kevkrom]

An Orson Scott Card column from a few months ago hit it square on the head. To paraphrase: any society that compels its members to follow a particular religion (on pain of death, imprisionment, exile, or other legal penalty) cannot claim to have any true believers in the religion, for without free exercise, who can say that they follow the path out of faith rather than simple self-interest?

[Republicain]

And as for you reply (which was a tad rude, but people have varying rudeness levels), it isn't very convincing. So the Turks aren't assimilating in Germany. So? Are Germans the epitomy of what is or isn't European? (two rhetorical questions). There are people in east France who still use German (i.e. they haven't assimilated into French culture).

1) In east of France people don't still use german but a germanic language (the Francique) that is older than modern german (I live in that part of France, but unfortunately I don't speak this local language).

2) He's talking about germany because the turkish migrants are mainly in Germany and Germany has a long relationship with Turkey (Ottoman's empire was an ally of Germany and austro-hungary during WWI).

3)Yes, by certain point of view, Turkey is close to Europe, but Ukrainia and Russia are far more closest. But we don't want Russia in EU too.

4) If EU is just a free market and free trade zone, than of course Turkey, Russia, Ukraine, even Morocco, Lybia, Israel, Palestine or iran can be one day member of EU. But EU is not only a free trade zone. It's more than that.

[Republicain]

P.P.S. There are a lot of freepers who are against the breakup of the former Yugoslavia. They--being Europeans--would have been in support of a nation not divided by religion.

I'm myself absolutely against dividing nations by religion, or language or, race or whatever. That's not at all what I try to say when I say that Turkey is not part of the European civilisation. The question is : what is Europe and what is a European country. Only history can tell. And history tells "Turkey is not Europe".

[ishabibble]

>>>So the Turks aren't assimilating in Germany. SO?<<<

That's just the type of thinking that got us into this mess.
This is the second article I've read from The Brussels Journal that confronts the problem head on...The Muslims are rotten and always have been, how's that for rude and true at the same time?

BTW, do you think that most Americans have forgotten that the lousy Turks chickened out when it came time to take out Saddam? I certainly haven't and really really hope that the IAF has a few bunker buster left over for our "Turkish allies" once they get done eradicating the Hezbullah from Lebanon. The Turk are hand in glove with the rest of those evil murderers...you're just splitting hairs. Typical.

[Jedi Master Pikachu]

Bluntly put, you're a nut. The topic is whether Turkey's European or not. What's support for the invasion of iraq have to do with that? Because Germany and France didn't support the war, are they suddenly not European? Yes Muslims are a threat to the West, but Turks are more atheistic than Muslim. You seem to be arguing that Turkey shouldn't become part of the EU, not whether Turkey is European.

P.S. is being a jerk necessary. The poster of this article was more polite than either you or wtc911 (this was why you were pinged), and he's actually European. Why are you, who are probably American, getting so angry over Turkey's placement in the world when you aren't even European?

[Carry_Okie]

As far as I know the only thing Islam has given us is nothing.

The 0.

It seems appropriate somehow.

[ishabibble]

>>>You seem to be arguing that Turkey shouldn't become part of the EU, not whether Turkey is European.<<<

You've got it right on both counts. The EU, mega-pox that it is on it's people, don't need the likes of the Turks to help them race down to hell in a handbasket. As you can plainly see from your vantage point, they are doing quite well on their own. I don't know or care whether Turks are Europeans.
I do know that when American ground forces needed a hand, the Turks gave us the finger. Cowards and bullies, that's all they are to me now. Turkey didn't stand up when it was time and made things difficult for our soldiers, *so* now they can just go pound sand with the rest of the craven Muslims. Sand is the last damn thing that culture invented anyway.

*So*, you think I'm a nut? I'm just a Marine Mom who watches the backs of my son and his fellows, taking note of the enemies and the traitors as they reveal themselves. The Turks are high up on my personal **** List, and if you don't like that, that's just too bad. I am not afraid of a cartoon or a Muslim, how 'bout you?

[Republicain]

Bluntly put, you're a nut. The topic is whether Turkey's European or not. What's support for the invasion of iraq have to do with that?

There's a kind of obsession about Irak here. It's seems that for a lot of Freepers the world is divided in two between the countries who supported the US invasion of Irak and the others... Without nuances. It's really a binary vision of the world. In short, if you're not a vassal of the USA, you're necessarily an ennemy. Ridiculous !

[Republicain]

As far as I know the only thing Islam has given us is nothing. The 0.

As far as I know the "zero" is an Indian invention, transmitted to Western Europe by Arabs... But, no matters, it's one of the most important human invention of all times. In short, a 0 is far to be nothing. ;-)

[livius]

Actually, not even nothing - they got the 0 from India. Another thing they stole before they decided that even mathematics was un-Islamic.

[livius]

The only "Europeanness" of Turkey is the result of the fact that it was conquered later than most other Islamic countries. Prior to that, you could make a point that it shared much of European cultural assumptions.

However, it ceased to do that several hundred years ago and has been an adversary of the West ever since, except when its dysfunctional Islamic culture makes it too weak even to be an enemy. And as usual, every time some attempts are made to modernize the country, at least structurally, the orthodox Islamics rise up and try to drag it right back to the 7th century.

[Carry_Okie]

Actually, not even nothing - they got the 0 from India. Another thing they stole before they decided that even mathematics was un-Islamic.

So they didn't give us nothing; they brought us nothing, but gave us death and destruction!

Lovely bunch.