Posted on 06/01/2006 1:40:13 PM PDT by TSchmereL
Back in March, and again last month, I published the first and second in a series of correspondences between Dave and John.
Sharing a Privte Conversation with a Bush Hater (Part 1)
and Sharing a Privte Conversation with a Bush Hater (Part 2)
John has a PhD in physics and works in the private sector for a European corporation in New Jersey. He is an infantile liberal but he knows a lot about science.
Dave is a lawyer in a small town. Dave has a degree in History and Law, a lot of common sense, and he knows how the world works.
John suffers from Bush Derangement Syndrome.
Dave was just trying to help John.
In this episode, Dave overwhelms John with so many new facts that it causes John such intense, painful cognitive dissonance, John makes a wild, unsubstantiated charge of racism against Dave.
This really pisses Dave off so Dave rubs John's nose in John's own excrement.
Iranian president Mahmoud Amadnutjob has given an interview to Germany's Der Spiegel:
Germans should stop feeling Holocaust guilt: Ahmadinejad
BERLIN (Reuters) - Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad told Germans they should no longer allow themselves to be held prisoner by a sense of guilt over the Holocaust and reiterated doubts that the Holocaust even happened.
In an interview with Germany's Der Spiegel magazine, Ahmadinejad said he doubted Germans were allowed to write "the truth" about the Holocaust and said he was still considering traveling to Germany for the World Cup soccer tournament.
"I believe the German people are prisoners of the Holocaust. More than 60 million were killed in World War Two ... The question is: Why is it that only Jews are at the center of attention?" he said in the interview published on Sunday.
"How long is this going to go on?" he added. "How long will the German people be held hostage to the Zionists? . . . Why should you feel obligated to the Zionists? You've paid reparations for 60 years and will have to pay for another 100 years."
As the report makes apparent, Mr. Amadnutjob wants to go to Germany to see the World Cup soccer game but this makes some Germans uncomfortable because he is a Jew hating admirer of Adolf Hitler (may his name be erased).
But shouldn't the German government allow Mr. Amadnutjob to fly to Munich, rent a car, rent a hotel room, buy a general admission ticket to the soccer game, and then leave him to his own devices?
If the German government doesn't do that, isn't the German government effectively protecting a Jew hating admirer of Adolf Hitler (yemach shemo)?
I prefer to avoid using the term "Nazi."
I would rather call the party of Adolf Hitler (yemach shemo) by its full name: the National Socialist party of Germany.
Current casual comparisons of Hitler (yemach shemo) and "Nazis" with contemporary people, things and ideas is a desecration of the memory of the millions who were murdered in the name of National Socialism in Germany.
But worse is the intentionally blind and ignorant failure to see that the crimes of the National Socialist party were a natural result of the flaws inherent in socialism and other forms of oppressive, totalitarian ideologies.
And even worse is the senseless and self-negating conclusion that the crimes of the National Socialist party were the result of some inherent flaw in the ability of mankind, or the German people, to maintain and use power as a force to further good and do justice in this world.
And that is the true desecration of the memory of the millions who were murdered in the name of National Socialism.
By doing nothing more in opposition to Mahmoud Amadnutjob than preventing him from flying to Germany and attending a soccer game, the German government is effectively protecting a Jew hating admirer of Adolf Hitler (yemach shemo).
Even Mahmoud Amadnutjob knows these truths. That is why his mocking of the German people to "get over their Holocaust guilt" is so poignant.
I actually feel sorry for the German people. I wish they were able to "get over their Holocaust guilt," stand up, and confront Mahmoud Ahmadinejad at that soccer game in Germany.
From: John
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:03 AM
Alot of the young Germns have forgotten and talk about it openly. it is the older generation that still harbours guilt.
From: Dave
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 10:50 AM
There is no "younger German generation." Most of the young Germans are not from Germany.
From: Dave
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 12:05 PM
Today, approximately 50 percent of Muslims in Western Europe were born there.
The Muslim birth rate in Europe is currently more than three times that of non-Muslims, contributing to the burgeoning numbers of Muslims in Europe.
As a result, Muslim communities in Europe are significantly younger than the non-Muslim population, and Europe's "Generation X" and "Millennium Generation" include considerably more Muslims than does the continent's population as a whole.
One-third of Germany's four million Muslims are under 18 (compared to 18 percent of the German population as a whole).
It's the Demography, Stupid The real reason the West is in danger of extinction.
BY MARK STEYN
Wednesday, January 4, 2006
Much of what we loosely call the Western world will not survive this century, and much of it will effectively disappear within our lifetimes, including many if not most Western European countries . . .. Italy and the Netherlands will merely be designations for real estate. The challenge for those who reckon Western civilization is on balance better than the alternatives is to figure out a way to save at least some parts of the West.
From: Dave
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 10:15 AM
I keep thinking about this reply:
"Alot [sic] of the young Germns [sic] have forgotten [about the Holocaust] and talk about it openly. it is the older generation that still harbours guilt."
That is so creepy. First, how do you "forget" about something and "talk about it openly?" What does that imply?
Second, what makes you think "Alot [sic] of the young Germns [sic] have forgotten [about the Holocaust] and talk about it openly?"
Is this based on some statistic you have read, or is this just based on the young Germans with whom you are acquainted?
Do these young Germans say things like:
"We are socialists! We are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." (Adolf Hitler, Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306).
From: John
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 2:34 PM
jesus christ dude,
"forgotten" as in let the guilt go ...as they should
and "talk about it openly" as not afraid to mention WW2 ,Hitler and discuss germany's role in the war.
They def. do NOT say things like that.
my data comes from the Germans that I know and we have had many a discussion about this very issue. They tell me that most younger < 30 yrs do not harbor guilt and are willing to discuss WW2.
they are not proud of their past, but they feel like they should be allowed to discuss it ,write books about it and teach it in schools. and they do.
why would you put a qoute like that and ask if this is what they say????
what is going on there????????
From: David
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 4:00 PM
Germans have been captivated by Socialist experiments and Socialist governments for my whole life and since long before I was born. It is only recently that they appear to be barely coming to grips with the realities of the failures of Socialism as their native population declines, ages, and loses jobs.
That quote from Adolf Hitler is no different than what modern anti-capitalist, anti-American, European socialists say everyday. These are the sentiments to which Gerhard Schroeder pandered for his election, and reelection, as Chancellor of Germany for so many years. So, I can only assume they are still popular sentiments.
I have no doubt that the Germans learned many lessons from WWII. But I have some serious doubt that they learned all the lessons which are there.
Compare Hitler's ideas with those of Greenpeace co-founder, Paul Watson, who called humans the "AIDS of the earth", and one of the three key founders of the German Greens, Herbert Gruhl, who said the environmental crisis was so acute the state needed perhaps 'dictatorial powers."
Look at the political party programs or "platforms" of Hitler's day:
"9. All citizens of the State shall be equal as regards rights and duties.
10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. The activities of the individual may not clash with the interests of the whole, but must proceed within the frame of the community and be for the general good.
Therefore we demand:
11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.
12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in life and property, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as a crime against the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits whether in assets or material.
13. We demand the nationalization of businesses which have been organized into cartels.
14. We demand that all the profits from wholesale trade shall be shared out.
15. We demand extensive development of provision for old age.
16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle-class, the immediate communalization of department stores which will be rented cheaply to small businessmen, and that preference shall be given to small businessmen for provision of supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.
17. We demand a land reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to confiscate from the owners without compensation any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land."
What is the difference between that and the US Democrats, the British Labour Party, the Canadian Liberals, and the European Social Democratic parties?
That manifesto is an extract from the (February 25th, 1920) 25 point plan of the National Socialist German Workers Party and was written by the leader of that party: Adolf Hitler.
From: John
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 5:04 PM
you are clearly misinformed.
this is not a debate, this is a rant and a racist one at that.
I do not wish to discuss this issue any further.
Keep in mind, I am not sticking up for the germans, I could give a shit about the germans.
I just do not want to persue any crazy argument that makes no sense.
If it makes sense to you than good for you, it does not to me.
from now on I will only partake in discussions of children, music, wives, family, house renovating, and drinking.
From: Dave
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 5:24 PM
Nonsense. I am well informed. I clearly know more about history and world events than you do.
90 percent of what I included in my emails to you are historical facts. They don't make sense to you because they are at odds with what you think you know.
Furthermore, there is nothing racist about anything I have said and I challenge you to point to one single racist idea I have expressed. In fact, it is precisely because I am not a racist that I said in a few emails earlier that "the crimes of the National Socialist party were [not] the result of some inherent flaw in the ability of mankind, or the German people, to maintain and use power as a force to further good and do justice in this world."
Don't forget, you asked me what I believe and you engaged me in this discussion.
I still haven't heard you articulate your beliefs, and I actually doubt you can.
So if you hear me mention children, music, wives, family, house renovating, or drinking, chime right in. Otherwise, just ignore me.
From: David
Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2006 11:37 AM
I was just re-reading the most fraudulent email you ever sent me, one which I will always treasure, which began: "i have to be honest."
I have a theory that whenever someone begins with a statement like "i have to be honest," you can be damn sure some whoppers are about to follow.
The very next statement you made was that in January of this year, in an effort to aggravate me, you "made up" your claim that we had just experience the "worst month yet in Iraq" in terms of war casualties.
I never believed you for one moment. You did not make up the claim that December had been the "worst month yet in Iraq." You were merely repeating what you thought you had heard distorted by the most dishonest, anti-American press in the history of our nation.
The truth is I had just used actual statistics about Iraq casualties to prove how wrong you were and you were too embarrassed to admit it.
Then you claimed you were "not really debating, but aggravating."
I never believed that either. And sure enough, as I ignored you and continued to offer you the debate, you engaged me over a very long period of time, until it was you who became aggravated and said "this is not a debate . . . I do not wish to discuss this issue any further . . .. I just do not want to persue [sic] any crazy argument that makes no sense."
The only honest statement you made in that email was "I am just an ignorant fool who does not like goerge [sic] bush."
Then you claimed you had engaged me in debate because you "like to get a rise out of people, esp. repubs."
This was also pure hypocrisy. When I got a "rise" out of you, you said "No More! No More!"
And to top it off, when I gave you fully referenced, irrefutable facts about modern Germany and historical German National Socialist ideas, you accused me of making a "rant and a racist one at that."
I challenged you to point to one single "racist" idea I expressed. You still haven't done it, and you can't do it, because I don't have any racist ideas in my head.
I can't tell you how pissed off it makes me to have someone slime me with a slanderous charge of racism, run away, and not try to back it up.
You still have not articulated your beliefs and I still think you don't have the intellectual capacity or balls to articulate what you believe. I strongly suspect you don't even believe anything at all.
I have a charge for you that I can back up with facts: "You are an illiterate, intellectual fraud."
I wonder - what's John's attitude towards the whole slavery compensation thing? I mean with his "let the guilt go," comment...I'm just curious.
Ping for later
Ping for later
I would disagree with your assertion that "...you don't believe anything at all..." could be applied to a majority of Americans.
I will, however, concede that attribute may apply to a substantial portion.
John, on the other hand... Way back when I first moved to Boston, I mostly associated with a crowd of MIT students (from undergrad all the way to post-doc). Most of them were in the earth-space sciences field, with one computer scientist thrown in. ALL of them were rabid, knee jerk libs. Like John, there was this incredible sense of entitlement and superiority. If you disagreed with them, you weren't just possessing an opposite viewpoint--you were stupid. Literally, the attitude was, "We're scientists. We're better and smarter, so just listen to us..."
This was in the early 90s, and they were all enamored with Bill Clinton, and felt we were finally leaving the horrors of the Reagan years behind us...
I started to drift away from them for obvious reasons, and eventually lost touch with the last one after a brutal email exchange in the days immediately after 9/11.
Like this guy John, they were always famous for dropping verbal bombs and then running from the fallout. If you pursued them and used facts, they'd obfuscate and go on the personal attack. It was as pointless as nailing Jell-O(TM) to a wall. Utterly elitist, and seriously miserable folks.
There was a farmer who used to feed his hogs apples by holding them up to eat the apples directly off the apple tree. He neighbor asked him, "Isn't that a waste of time?"
The farmer replied "What's time to a hog?"
Dave is not wasting his time. Dave is engaging in something he enjoys and he is conducting a valuable experiment the results of which he is sharing with others.
Gotcha. Well, as long as he enjoys sparring with the libs--that's great. My hubby's like that. I've seen him engage libs in 'debate'. He's like a cat toying with a cockroach. It's a thing of beauty.
By all means, share more of these experiments. They're awesome reads!
ping
I'm around a lot of younger people. It's true of most of them because they're taught they're not supposed to believe in anything. To do so would be a "judgement", which is a violation of the only Bible verse they've ever heard of.
That is one thing I clearly don't understand, and disagree with.
Somewhere along the way, it became bad to be "judgemental".
Maybe that coincides with the skyrocketing teen birth rate and drop out rate.
We wouldn't want to be judgemental!
Exactly.
Bookmark for later.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.