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Army Told Not to Use Israeli Bullets in Iraq (06-24-2004)
My way news ^ | 06-24-2004 | Anon

Posted on 04/18/2006 7:10:51 AM PDT by white trash redneck

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Israeli-made bullets bought by the U.S. Army to plug a shortfall should be used for training only, not to fight Muslim guerrillas in Iraq and Afghanistan, U.S. lawmakers told Army generals on Thursday.

Since the Army has other stockpiled ammunition, "by no means, under any circumstances should a round (from Israel) be utilized," said Rep. Neil Abercrombie of Hawaii, the top Democrat on a House of Representatives Armed Services subcommittee with jurisdiction over land forces.

The Army contracted with Israel Military Industries Ltd. in December for $70 million in small-caliber ammunition.

The Israeli firm was one of only two worldwide that could meet U.S. technical specifications and delivery needs, said Brig. Gen. Paul Izzo, the Army's program executive officer for ammunition. The other was East Alton, Illinois-based Winchester Ammunition, which also received a $70 million contract.

Although the Army should not have to worry about "political correctness," Abercrombie was making a valid point about the propaganda pitfalls of using Israeli rounds in the U.S.-declared war on terror, said Rep. Curt Weldon, the Pennsylvania Republican who chairs the subcommittee on tactical air and land forces.

"There's a sensitivity that I think all of us recognize," Weldon told the Army witnesses, including Maj. Gen. Buford Blount, who led the U.S. Third Infantry Division that captured Baghdad in April 2003.

Blount, now the Army's assistant deputy chief of staff, said the Army had sufficient small caliber ammunition -- 5.56mm, 7.62mm and .50 caliber -- to conduct current operations in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

But taken together with training needs, the United States had strained its production facilities, he testified.

"To fight a major combat operation in another theater will require the Army to impose restrictions on training expenditures and to focus current inventory and new production on combat operations," Blount said.

As a result, he said the Army hoped to stretch U.S. supplies to supplement the capacity of the government-owned Lake City plant in Independence, Missouri, that currently makes more than 90 percent of U.S. small caliber ammunition.

The Lake City factory, operated by Alliant Techsystems Inc., has nearly quadrupled its production in the past four years. This year, it will produce more than 1.2 billion rounds, Karen Davies, president of the ATK arm that runs it, told the panel. Lake City provided more than 2 billion rounds a year during World War II and Vietnam, she said.

The Army's needs will grow to about 1.5 billion to 1.7 billion rounds a year in coming years, Blount said.

"In the near-term, balancing training requirements with current operational needs is a manageable risk-mitigation strategy," he said.

The Army does not want to repeat its history of building capacity during wartime "only to dismantle it in peacetime," Blount added.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government; Israel; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: baconbullets; banglist; bravosierra; israel; mideast; pc; twoyearoldrecycle
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To: Tallguy
They should just mention to the locals that they "train" every day with a few rounds from Zion. That way they know the next round may have Zionist powder left overs on it.

Jeeze Louise, this is ridiculous.

61 posted on 04/18/2006 8:06:31 AM PDT by chuckles
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To: white trash redneck

Could there possibly be some kind of incompatibility issue here? Maybe our leaders dont want to put a soldier in a life or death situation where the ammo could possibly malfunction?

Sorry to be a buzz-kill.


62 posted on 04/18/2006 8:07:27 AM PDT by ConservativeChris
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To: NonValueAdded
That worked very well for the Ruskies in Lebanon.
63 posted on 04/18/2006 8:11:23 AM PDT by ozdragon
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To: white trash redneck

this p*ssed me off the last time I read it too.

It is just plain scary to think we have people in control of our military that think like this and are in a position to enforce it. We're at WAR.....Everything should be fair. These insurgents are trying to kill our troops and someone has the nerve to come up with this PC crap...One might get the impression that the person(s) that thought this up are ANTI American to the core.


64 posted on 04/18/2006 8:17:01 AM PDT by Proud Conservative2 ("When people show you who they are...BELIEVE THEM the first time..." Maya Angelou)
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To: Tarpon
>>
So how do you know what bullet hit you?
<<

The "headstamp" on the ejected brass littering the ground would say IMI.

Of course the bad guys are shooting anything they can dig up. Russian, Chinese, whatever.

Samo-samo. The bad guys don't have any rules but know they can tie us up with our own "sensitivities", legal system, concerns about public opinion (even from non-US public), or how we worry that we might upset the ones we haven't yet killed.
65 posted on 04/18/2006 8:17:46 AM PDT by theBuckwheat
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Comment #66 Removed by Moderator

To: theBuckwheat

Sounds like a simple problem to fix.


67 posted on 04/18/2006 8:20:10 AM PDT by Tarpon
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To: tumblindice
re :There was some sort of dust-up with muslims and redcoats in India a long time ago, wasn't there, over paper cartridges (that you had to bite) lubricated with pork fat, so that native troops rebelled?

That was in the back of my mind when I first started posting to this thread.

68 posted on 04/18/2006 8:20:57 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: Piranha
re :You are wishing away Israel by suggesting that it is better that US (and British) soldiers die from lack of inadequate ammunition than that they shoot Muslims with bullets manufactured in the Jewish state.

That is complete and utter bollox.

If we have no choice in the matter if there are no rounds apart from the ones from Israel.

But that is not the case, as already stated they have enough rounds to meet operational needs, and the Israeli can be used for training in the states

And as someone who has served my country including time in Basra you can take your stupid reply that I would rather troops die and stick it where the sun don't shine.

I want us to win out there and the troops brought home

69 posted on 04/18/2006 8:26:12 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: ideas_over_party
why would Congress get involved with that and not Ordnance?

To get their names in the paper and demonstrate their sensitivity.

70 posted on 04/18/2006 8:26:47 AM PDT by SJackson (The Pilgrims—Doing the jobs Native Americans wouldn’t do!)
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To: Vn_survivor_67-68
re :There is no "winning the hearts and minds".....they are simply being pragmatic right now.

As is all nations.

I don't expect them to love us, as long as Iraq is not a rogue state or a base of terrorist operations when we leave.

Are mission is to hold the line until the Iraqis can handle there own security.

71 posted on 04/18/2006 8:30:17 AM PDT by tonycavanagh (We got plenty of doomsayers where are the truth sayers)
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To: tonycavanagh

I believe it lead to the infamous `Black Hole of Calcutta' debacle, didn't it, with the irony--I think the `bullets lubricated w/pork-fat' was just a unfounded rumor.
My father told a story of having to pay the French company Michelin for rubber trees we damaged going after VC.
I'd say that was ridiculous, but here, as silly as `Zionist bullets' seems to us, discretion may be the better part of valor.


72 posted on 04/18/2006 8:31:49 AM PDT by tumblindice (`I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it.'.... Groucho)
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To: tonycavanagh

Hey, Tony,

Would you mind terribly much if the bullets were made in the US, but were made by Jews?

Just wondering.


73 posted on 04/18/2006 8:33:13 AM PDT by Piranha
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To: white trash redneck

Un-freakin-believable.

How can we defeat these murdering bustards with all this PC crap?


74 posted on 04/18/2006 8:35:54 AM PDT by Beckwith (The liberal media has picked sides and they've sided with the Jihadists.)
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To: tonycavanagh

That was the `Sepoy Mutiny', my mistake.
I'm just sikh about it . . .
http://www.sikhspectrum.com/052005/1857.htm


75 posted on 04/18/2006 8:39:30 AM PDT by tumblindice (Just beyond the Narrows, the river widens)
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To: white trash redneck
Don't the ragheads know that we get a little sensitive when they use our aircraft to crash into our buildings.
76 posted on 04/18/2006 8:41:08 AM PDT by BulletBobCo
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To: white trash redneck

Even though this is an old article, I have 2 comments:

1) I remain stunned at how utter stupid and cowardly so many people, especially including so-called "leaders" are in the face of a bunch of 7th century nutjobs.

2) How in the Hell is anyone going to know the difference? IMI will be providing what Winchester calls Q3131A. It is the made-in-Israel equivalent of Winchester's US-made Q3131. It is extremely high quality (accurate and dependable - I've fired more than 1,000 rounds of it with no misfires and no flyers that weren't my fault) and, *more importantly* for this article, it is indistinguishable from the Q3131 except for the "Made in Israel" printed on the box. The cases are marked "Winchester," same as the Q3131, and the bullets are unmarked (not that this matters much after hitting a target, but I thought I'd mention it). I find it hard to believe that IMI would have any trouble in leaving that off of the containers holding the ammo if we requested it, so how the @#$* would the Islamofascists know the difference?

FWIW, I think that we should purposely and publicly use the Israeli ammo, just to show that we can't be intimidated and that we are not PC. Our soft spot is - and has been since Korea - our lack of courage as a nation to engage in a hot war of more than a few weeks duration. The strategy to defeat us is a well-known and easy one to implement - stall, inflict 10-50 dead per week on our forces, and in a matter of a few months our domestic traitors will begin the drumbeat for withdrawal (A.K.A. surrender).


77 posted on 04/18/2006 8:47:39 AM PDT by Ancesthntr
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To: Jersey Republican Biker Chick

I would not believe this except we are talking about our congress and we could expect this from them.


78 posted on 04/18/2006 8:47:45 AM PDT by newcthem (Thought I was an American.......now I find I'm just a racist.)
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To: white trash redneck
This is the most obscene behavior ever displayed in our Congress! "Outrageous" is all I can say!
79 posted on 04/18/2006 8:58:02 AM PDT by 7thOF7th (Righteousness is our cause and justice will prevail!)
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To: MiHeat

" Lighten up and think a little."


I thought about it and formed an opinion, decided to recapitulate and came up with the same results. I'm not interested in good relations or any kind of relations with anyone of the Islamic faith....you know...that RELIGION of PEACE...I would be happiest if they were annihilated from the face of the earth.


80 posted on 04/18/2006 8:59:18 AM PDT by Proud Conservative2 ("When people show you who they are...BELIEVE THEM the first time..." Maya Angelou)
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