Posted on 01/12/2006 11:26:24 AM PST by Michael81Dus
Germany's new Chancellor Angela Merkel, due for a warm welcome in the Bush White House tomorrow, represents a new political phenomenon in her country. Her government embraces her conservative Christian Democrats (CDU) with their Bavarian allies in the Christian Social Union, and the Social Democrats, the first time such lineup in 37 years.
It is quite unlike its predecessor, the Red/Green coalition of 1998-2005, in which the ranks were filled with "sixty-eighters,"offspring of the 1968 anti-Vietnam War and anti-establishment student revolt, in whose new-leftist hearts dislike and distrust of America lingered.
Germany's relations with Washington have nearly always been better with CDU-run governments.
(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...
Until facts are proven different, we have no reason not to trust our military's judgement. Unlike some countries' history, we are not arresting people because of their religion, nationality, or race.
You are right. You did NOT capture them because you were NOT there. When you are there and capture them yourself, then you can decide what should be done with them. Deal??
Poo. Looks like I missed this party : (
LOL -- I'm sure the poster will be back. He's not banned or anything and had been around awhile -- just sleeping I believe.
Ich bin fuer Verteidigung!
Where did Michael "slander our military"? I didn't see anything like that, only that in the long term he wants to close Gitmo. You have to understand that terrorism on this scale is a new problem in the world and we're all figuring out how to deal with it. In a conventional war, each side keeps POWs in prisons and then returns them at the end of the war. The problem with the WOT is that it will probably never end, but only quiet down for some long stretches between attacks. So this means you have to hold enemy combatants forever in your prison. That's a new concept for the world to deal with and some people dont' like that concept. What if somebody isn't actually a terrorist and is held for life by accident? It's a difficult subject for everyone to deal with. Terrorism stinks, and it sure creates a whole lot of problems.
Don´t know what you´re talking about.
I haven´t called your military dirt. Don´t you know the saying "dirt on a white vest"? It means that an issue damages the otherwise good reputation. In fact, I have friends in the US military. It is you throwing mud on me because you simply can´t accept a different opinion.
I hope that I am not offensive when I say that every medium -even FR- has its makers who have their interests in publishing certain informations. Therefore every one of us has to collect those informations that are most of all trustworty from the different available sources. No doubt that FR is a great help, but it can not be the only one. This is for sure
Espechially the news over foreign countries are often inaccurate since some of them were posted in a certain political intention. If you take the discussion over the "Orange Revolution" in the Ukraine here in FR for example, you will find out that there are two parties who are fighting over the ultimative truth with extreme positions. My impression is, that the truth over Ukraine lies somewhere in the middle.
For a somebody like me it is difficult to believe anything without proof. I do not believe in leftist propaganda but I also not believe in emotionally overstrung viewpoints of other conservatives.
It is exactly the same with those news over Germany. Many people here are boiling in anger because of Schroeders refusal to take part in the Iraq war. Therefore they react extremly aggressive on everthing German no matter if it is pro-US or not. My advice is to listen very carefully to Michael since he knows exactly about the circumstances in western Europe. The Gitmo-discussion is that important on our side of the Atlantic because a majority of Europeans do not share the will to deal with their prisoners the way the US are doing. This is a simple fact. Until recently we shared the same position concerning human rights with the US. It was easy to be in line with you then. After 9/11 this platform was definitly lost. Merkel as a elected leader of 80.000.000 Europeans has the duty to tell Pres. Bush that something fundamental had changed in our relationship. Doesn't she? Of course they also could drink some coffee together and talk politely about the weather...
Let me say that much: Merkel is serving Germany. I am convinced that she is doing that with all of her heart. Of course she does not serve America or anybody else. We can help each other the best way on those issues were our interests and values are operlapping. Therefore the discussion with Germany about Gitmo is nessecary if America wants to have a bigger contribution to its global war on terror from us than recently.
That is not correct, read the text. The GC´s also apply to partisan groups, militia if they meet the criteria.
Not at all. But I gotta do some regular work. I´m not a full-time FReeper. Ever heard of different time zones?
Is that the reason why you don´t try your inmates? I´m still looking for the reason. Your administration fears that the judges could ignore the law or that the could be insufficient? That´s not an excuse, you better find a solution for this problem.
Yes, several Iraqi and Afghan inmates are classified as POW.
You aren´t offensive at all. Thank you, we can need good wishes! :-)
In earlier times there was the saying "innocent until guilt proven". Now it´s "guilty until innocence proven"? And spare you your Nazi referrance.
Exactly. You wanna tell me something, freema?
And Star, isn´t this all about you saying Good-Bye to one of the standards we used to have as common sense in the western world: keeping people behind bars if convicted or in preparation of a soon trial and that people are innocent until guilt proven? I don´t wish to defend these nice guys in Gitmo, but you compel me to do so as long as you don´t treat them with the judicial standards you used to spread around the world. I guess (and have read it in several papers) the difference between you and me is, that I perceive the WOT as a military operation for law enforcement. You say law doesn´t apply in this fight. Haven´t you also put Japanese in camps during WW2? Must be this kind of over-reaction when the USA gets attacked on its territory. The urge to fight your enemies by all means is understandable, of course. But you shouldn´t forget our standards.
Hehe, yeah, me too.
Well said. I had a lovely party yesterday evening. What was planned to be a nice small talk about Merkel´s visit in the US and the expectations on her, came out as a discussion about Gitmo. I know that you think Gitmo is ok - and you´re one of the few Germans believing that.
I differ, although I agree that the collection of informations through interrogations of Gitmo-inmates have contributed to our security here, too. I also do not question the treatment of the prisoners, incl. water boarding. Not long ago, I was opposed to these forms of treatment, but I learned how the water boarding works. It´s ok considering the importance of the informations these people may have.
But I do criticize that people are held in prison camps without a trial. If they´re POW (and there are several from Iraq and Afghanistan who have this status according to US sources), they shall be released as soon as the armed conflict in their homeland is over (e.g. Iraq is stable and the Taliban in Afghanistan are defeated). That may take some time but is in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.
If they´re not POW, they´re "civilians" (= criminals, terrorists, whatever you may call them). They shall be entitled to the rights of the Fourth Geneva Convention and be treated according to the laws. Therefore, those people should face a trial. If the reason, why you refuse to try them, is a lack of trust in your judges - you should fix this problem.
We here have difficulties with our judges, too. Remember the trial, conviction, appeal, acquittal, re-trial of Motassadeq? Or the case Mzoudi? Ashaming for Germany. This wouldn´t happen if we had Gitmo. But do we really want to give up "innocent until guilt is proven" and "no imprisonment without conviction or soon process"?
From my view, there is no just way practised right now. In Guantanamo, innocents were imprisoned. In Germany (for instance) guilty people were set free (although extradition to Marocco is likely). It must be possible to find a way in the middle.
I think I have elaborated my views again, and now for all. One last note, I think some haven´t shown fair and unbiased behaviour. They saw "German" "against Gitmo" and started punching no matter what. I had nothing to offer but my smile on that. Learn to differentiate. There isn´t black and white only.
Thank you for attention. Have a good weekend y´all!
Let's say I understand the necessity. America has to deal with 3000 killed compatriots. It is quite logical to me that they are and will stay in anger about OBL and his scum. There was no other opportunity than to react hard. Nevertheless I believe that the US have to change the status of Gitmo into a international accepted prison. Therefore Merkel is absolutely right, that it has to be transformed into something better or must be closed after a transit time. America needs something with a flawless legal foundation. The inmates need trials and their human rights have to be respected even if the punishment is hard. Innocent people have to go free. Period. Therefore I do not think that our positions are that far away in this case. Furthermore I am convinced that the administration of Pres. Bush will also move into this direction since this step is just in the well understood self interest of the US.
The west (not only the US) needs something like a "Sicherheitsverwahrung" (security imprisonment) that can be imposed by our judges if one of the prisoners is obviously a public danger. Such a law must be temporarly controlled. The prisoner must have the chance of revision in short intervals. Just as you said it - a way in the middle.
it's always been easier... indeed. Just holding people in a fenced area without a proper court decision calling them terrrorist because they are on 'a list'.
I admire those who stand before the lynch mobs and defend the american system of justice - noone is guilty unless sentenced in front of a proper court. It's a sweat job to enforce nowadays but someone's got to do it.
if there's a line between justice and the mob - i'd like to step over it, too !
So I think there's always things to learn from each other - W might learn something about the germany wanting to help more obviously in the WOT if only the obstacles like CIA prisons and Gitmo whould be removed and ...
... it's only desirable that she learns the difference between raising taxes to start an economy improvement program - and an economy improvement program.
Maybe she can learn that in return - please ?!
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