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Exactly. You wanna tell me something, freema?

And Star, isn´t this all about you saying Good-Bye to one of the standards we used to have as common sense in the western world: keeping people behind bars if convicted or in preparation of a soon trial and that people are innocent until guilt proven? I don´t wish to defend these nice guys in Gitmo, but you compel me to do so as long as you don´t treat them with the judicial standards you used to spread around the world. I guess (and have read it in several papers) the difference between you and me is, that I perceive the WOT as a military operation for law enforcement. You say law doesn´t apply in this fight. Haven´t you also put Japanese in camps during WW2? Must be this kind of over-reaction when the USA gets attacked on its territory. The urge to fight your enemies by all means is understandable, of course. But you shouldn´t forget our standards.

"Exactly. You wanna tell me something, freema?"

"And Star, isn´t this all about you saying Good-Bye to one of the standards we used to have as common sense in the western world: keeping people behind bars if convicted or in preparation of a soon trial and that people are innocent until guilt proven? I don´t wish to defend these nice guys in Gitmo, but you compel me to do so as long as you don´t treat them with the judicial standards you used to spread around the world. I guess (and have read it in several papers) the difference between you and me is, that I perceive the WOT as a military operation for law enforcement. You say law doesn´t apply in this fight. Haven´t you also put Japanese in camps during WW2? Must be this kind of over-reaction when the USA gets attacked on its territory. The urge to fight your enemies by all means is understandable, of course. But you shouldn´t forget our standards."

I hope you got a good night's sleep, Michael. I am excited Merkel has come to visit.

I can see why you would think it very well could be about 'saying goodbye to one of the standards we used to have as common sense in the western world', Michael, because that sums up in a nutshell how it felt in America on the morning of September 11, 2001. I understood your comment about the white vest. I would alter that statement however. While you see mud on our vest, if you take a closer look....you'll see what we see.... our own blood.

I don't understand your remark about over-reaction in defending ourselves when we're attacked. Having just been in a sniper thread, where the catch phrase being discussed was: "You can run, but you die tired" sums up our philosophy of eliminating an enemy combatant who does not abide by the rules of engagement. Those at Gitmo aren't dead. They're sitting on prayer rugs, having nice meals, and bitching because they haven't been able to get their 72 virgins.

We shouldn't forget your standards?! We are well aware that we are expected to shoulder the burden. We don't expect Germany to stand up and share in the burden. We expect we will, at any given point, need to CYA. We really don't appreciate being critiqued on how we should do that. We paid the lion's share to rid the world of problems years ago, and we're doing it again. We would certainly hope Germany's assistance would have been (and still might be) forthcoming, but we can't expect it, and we take whatever assistance does come with a smile.

you don´t treat them with the judicial standards you used to spread around the world

They are being treated better here than in their own country in most cases. There is no law governing the handling of TERRORISTS who are NOT CRIMINALS nor are they POW's. Maybe law needs to be written. But you can't get that simple fact thru your head and that's why this discussion cannot be a real debate. You have to understand the basis of their detention, which you do not.

I perceive the WOT as a military operation for law enforcement

Wrong. As you have been told MANY times on this thread. This is a war, not a police action.

Must be this kind of over-reaction when the USA gets attacked on its territory.

I don't think you really want to go there. Do you? If you do, then let's discuss how Germany handled their own citizens, the German Jews, who they decided were their enemies.