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Raising the volume on what men think about feminism
The Age ^ | Sushi Das

Posted on 01/10/2006 1:49:22 AM PST by nickcarraway

SUSHI DAS discovers what men think about feminism.

'FEMINISM has turned women into selfish, spoiled, spiteful, powerless victims," shrieked the email. "Men are talking, can't you hear it? Marriage rates are down, birthrates are down, men are using women for their pleasure and then leaving them."

If it was only one of a handful of emails I received, I might not have given it much thought. But there were many more. "I do not think it's men or boys that need reforming. I think women are the main instigators of hate against one half of the population," wrote another man.

Then there was this: "I have healthy relationships with women and always have protected sex to avoid entrapment … why should I risk losing everything I own and having my children taken away from me?"

And this: "The modern guy is not looking for the 'services' past generations did, they often just want a nice person to share their life with, rather than someone who is going to be climbing corporate ladders, getting pregnant when she chooses and then assuming complete control of a child's life. That is not to say they are not supportive of women's careers and goals."

The emails were a response to a challenge I posed to men on this page a couple of weeks ago. Specifically, I asked them to engage in debates relating to "feminist issues" and show they understood that equality, women's rights, the work/life imbalance, the declining birthrate, sexual politics and relationships generally are important to everybody, not just women.

I received, a tsunami of emails. Many were considered arguments. A significant number were the bitter outpourings of men hurt by women. Some elucidated the frustrations of men who couldn't find Ms Right. Sadly, many were simply vitriolic or abusive.

In the hundreds of emails, anger appeared to be the underlying emotion because the writers believed the pendulum had swung too far in favour of women. There were some common threads: men were angry that women's needs took priority over theirs; they felt men constituted the majority of the unemployed, the homeless, the victims of industrial accidents and suicides, that men's health received less funding than women's, and that boys' education was poor. In relationships, they felt some women were "not very nice to men" and were often too selfish to consider their needs. These concerns are real,

but how many can really be blamed on feminism?

Essentially, men raised three broad concerns over why they did not engage in the debate on feminist issues. First, they were scared of being howled down by aggressive feminists who dismissed their views. Second, they felt they were victims too, but women didn't listen to them. Third, they were confused about what women really wanted and what constituted appropriate behaviour.

On the first issue, I agree, some women are dismissive of men's views simply because they are men. Men who speak out, wrote one man, are "smashed upon the rocks of indignation" and this made it "a very, very scary debate to engage with". Another said: "Opting out of an argument in which we cannot hope to be allowed an equal voice let alone a fair outcome is a perfectly rational response."

My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out. Put your case. It will stand or fall on its merit. Stop being scared. There are plenty of women willing to listen. And if you get howled down, get up and say it again. That's how women got their voices heard in the 1970s.

On the issue of men as victims, some argued women too are violent, that men have few rights on abortion, that female teachers get off more lightly when they sexually abuse male students, that men are vilified as pedophiles, that affirmative action is discriminatory, that women frequently win the custody battle. Clearly these concerns require attention. Perhaps it is governments that are not listening to men, rather than women.

Finally, some men were unsure of their role in society. This is complex, and women must recognise this. But men should also let common decency be their guide to appropriate behaviour. Being a decent human being shouldn't be that hard.

Equality is a prerequisite for development. When the shouting from our respective corners is over, perhaps resentment from both sides will melt.

Many emails I received were a cry from the heart from men. But it's not just about women listening to their words, it's about men taking action to improve their own lives. This means speaking out, whatever the consequences — engaging in the debate on equality or feminism or whatever it is called these days.

With that in mind, I'll leave the last words to a man: "Damned if we do, damned if we don't. We need to speak though. We do not want our daughters growing up stunted by arguments or situations that could have been campaigned away. Equally, our sons require education. But how do we do this with integrity? That's the challenge for all involved."


TOPICS: Australia/New Zealand; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: feminism; genderwars; hemangirlhatersclub; jealouswimminsequel; men; sexes; women
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To: John O
I give respect out with an eyedropper following real achievements, and no I do not respect people merely for the offices they hold.

I believe Acton put it, in the context of the evils of various popes and another historian's tendency to whitewash them, "great men are almost always bad men. Nor can there be any greater heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it. That is where the negative of Catholicism and the negation of liberalism meet and hold high festival, and the end learns to justify the means." Cesare Borgia as a pope is not to be respected as a pope, but to be damned as Cesare Borgia, murderer.

Respect is earned by virtuous conduct, meaning first and foremost service to others, and that is the basis of any good marriage, if there are any left.

541 posted on 01/11/2006 2:06:23 PM PST by JasonC
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To: JasonC
"instead of attacking its opponents"

Jason C it is YOU who jumped on this thread attacking it's opponents.

542 posted on 01/11/2006 2:06:58 PM PST by TAdams8591 (The first amendment does NOT protect vulgar and obscene speech.)
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To: HairOfTheDog
John, that man has run through this thread being rude to every woman on it. Do you honestly think he deserves respect?

Perhaps I replied to his post out of context? For his actions he deserves no respect. A husband always deserves respect, a wife always deserves respect, a president always deserves respect. A rude, crude, crass, and otherwise socially objectionable person does not deserve respect.

(Were they not talking about husbands and wives? If not I guess I'm guilty of posting without reading again)

543 posted on 01/11/2006 2:09:36 PM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: najida

He seems to be angry and bitter at ALL women and you are definitely part of that group.


544 posted on 01/11/2006 2:10:04 PM PST by TAdams8591 (The first amendment does NOT protect vulgar and obscene speech.)
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To: JasonC
"But I am proudly a misogynist"

Do you understand MYSOGYNIST means you hate ALL women, not just the feminists?

545 posted on 01/11/2006 2:12:24 PM PST by TAdams8591 (The first amendment does NOT protect vulgar and obscene speech.)
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To: JasonC
no I do not respect people merely for the offices they hold.P> That's incredibly sad. If you do not respect the office then you cannot respect the Constitution (because the Constitution establishes the office) and if you do not respect the Constitution how can you respect the country?

Respect is earned by virtuous conduct, meaning first and foremost service to others, and that is the basis of any good marriage, if there are any left.

But the first measure of respect is due to position. You are to honor (respect) your father. Why, because he's your father. He could turn out to be a real buttwipe but he's still your father. God tells us to respect him regardless

546 posted on 01/11/2006 2:15:59 PM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: najida
I don't give a darn about you enough to be angry with you. I replied to a post of yours the expressed feminist sentiments and said attacks on feminist principles gave you a headache and made you want to go have fun, by telling you to go have fun then, far away from me. Which was expressing the general principle, nobody needs to worry their heads about offending feminist pieties, because they aren't pieties but impieties, and nobody needs feminists themselves.
547 posted on 01/11/2006 2:16:34 PM PST by JasonC
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To: JasonC

OK,
I understand you a lot better now.

Have a good life sugar :)


548 posted on 01/11/2006 2:18:15 PM PST by najida (When I'm good, I'm very very good, and when I'm bad, things get broken.)
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To: John O
(Were they not talking about husbands and wives? If not I guess I'm guilty of posting without reading again)

It's true it's all mixed up, that's the way these forums go. His post about respect being earned was just about the only fair and reasonable thing he's said on this thread so far. Husbands earn respect by being loving husbands. Love and respect is still earned, even in marriage, perhaps especially in marriage.

You know this... I know you do. You know there is a responsibility to remain respectable even after marriage. There's more in the vows besides 'till death do us part'.

549 posted on 01/11/2006 2:19:47 PM PST by HairOfTheDog (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/ 1,000 knives and counting!)
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To: HairOfTheDog
Actually, I responded to the original article writer (way back at post 223), initially, without paying any attention yet to other's comments. Then I went back and read a few comments from others on that page and the first page, and gave my reactions to their reactions. I have no idea who on the thread is or is not a woman and couldn't care less. We are discussing feminist ideology and the position put forth by the writer of the original article. My position is obvious enough I hope - feminism does not deserve any more respect than communism does, and those who defend it our enemies of conservatives. Perfectly clear. If you consider that an attack, it shows where you put yourself, that is all.
550 posted on 01/11/2006 2:20:36 PM PST by JasonC
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To: John O
It is my pleasure to accept you apologies, John O.

I once had a male friend who for some reason I have forgotten, discovered as a teenager he would be unable to father children. Everytime a woman broke up with him, he thought that was the reason. He eventually married and adopted. But he was ALWAYS very sensitive of his inability and thought it decreased his value as a man. One of his girlfriends fretted for six months about breaking up with him because she knew that was how he would see it and it wasn't so. She just thought they weren't a good match.

I think if he had read that one comment of yours he would have been extremely hurt.

Men and women deserve to be treated with sensitivity, love and respect, unless their actions should prove they deserve otherwise.

551 posted on 01/11/2006 2:21:08 PM PST by TAdams8591 (The first amendment does NOT protect vulgar and obscene speech.)
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To: John O
It is a fair point as far as it goes, but those defending feminist pieties are not conservative women, they are feminists. They may not know how deep it is run into them or be conscious of the fact, but anybody who reacts to attacks on feminist ideology as attacks on themselves, self-identifies with feminism and is not a conservative but an enemy ideologue.
552 posted on 01/11/2006 2:22:43 PM PST by JasonC
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To: HairOfTheDog
You know there is a responsibility to remain respectable even after marriage. There's more in the vows besides 'till death do us part'.

Of course. But that first quantity of respect is due to the position. After that it's up to the husband (wife) to earn more respect or lose what he has. But he is due some simply for being the husband.

To rest on one's laurels is a great way to kill a marriage. Fortunately it's male nature to strive to be worthy of respect (as I posted earlier.

553 posted on 01/11/2006 2:23:27 PM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: TAdams8591
I discussed the original article, then I told someone who said offenses against feminist pieties gave her a headache and made her want to go have fun, to go do so but stay away from me, and then disagreed with the sentiment that US men were wrong to write off US women as infected with feminism and to prefer other women. Which was another indirect defense of feminism. Nowhere did I attack sentiments critical of feminism, or bow to a single one of its pieties. So your charge is simply innaccurate as a factual matter.
554 posted on 01/11/2006 2:25:30 PM PST by JasonC
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To: RockinRight

Poor judgement on their part. I was married to a jerk once, but I was 19 and believed all his crap (I was a democrat, too, just to show you how screwed up I was). I've never dated a jerk since I booted him out, just nice guys. People wise up. Also, maybe you like the wrong women.


555 posted on 01/11/2006 2:26:05 PM PST by NYpeanut (gulping for air, I started crying and yelling at him, "Why did you lie to me?")
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To: John O

Yes, the office of the presidency does deserve respect. The problem with Clinton was he did not respect himself or his own office and he showed that over time. And I did not respect him. He did quite a lot to lose our respect.


556 posted on 01/11/2006 2:26:36 PM PST by TAdams8591 (The first amendment does NOT protect vulgar and obscene speech.)
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To: TAdams8591
Anyone who self identifies on feminist pieties and defends modern feminism is a feminist ideologue and deserves everything they get. It is not complicated. All anybody is noticing is that I don't play halfway-house games by bowing to half the feminist pieties or pretend there is anything moral about a scrap of it. Apparently that is still novel to some people. Well then they need a wake up, and to be told again none of us needs to give an inch to feminist claptrap nor do any of us need a single feminist.
557 posted on 01/11/2006 2:28:55 PM PST by JasonC
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To: TAdams8591
Men and women deserve to be treated with sensitivity, love and respect, unless their actions should prove they deserve otherwise

I agree. Sometimes the engineer in me gets in the way of relating my ideas with proper concern for how they will be recieved I guess.

558 posted on 01/11/2006 2:29:23 PM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: John O

His thinking and his behaviour were irrational and I was not interested in being converted into a feminist or living like one.


559 posted on 01/11/2006 2:30:36 PM PST by TAdams8591 (The first amendment does NOT protect vulgar and obscene speech.)
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To: TAdams8591
I deny it, I claim misogynist is a feminist hate-word like Eurocentrism or Orientalism and has no content beyond "hated by feminists for denouncing feminism". As such it is a badge of honor and anybody should be proud to self identify as a misogynist.
560 posted on 01/11/2006 2:31:26 PM PST by JasonC
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