Posted on 01/10/2006 1:49:22 AM PST by nickcarraway
SUSHI DAS discovers what men think about feminism.
'FEMINISM has turned women into selfish, spoiled, spiteful, powerless victims," shrieked the email. "Men are talking, can't you hear it? Marriage rates are down, birthrates are down, men are using women for their pleasure and then leaving them."
If it was only one of a handful of emails I received, I might not have given it much thought. But there were many more. "I do not think it's men or boys that need reforming. I think women are the main instigators of hate against one half of the population," wrote another man.
Then there was this: "I have healthy relationships with women and always have protected sex to avoid entrapment … why should I risk losing everything I own and having my children taken away from me?"
And this: "The modern guy is not looking for the 'services' past generations did, they often just want a nice person to share their life with, rather than someone who is going to be climbing corporate ladders, getting pregnant when she chooses and then assuming complete control of a child's life. That is not to say they are not supportive of women's careers and goals."
The emails were a response to a challenge I posed to men on this page a couple of weeks ago. Specifically, I asked them to engage in debates relating to "feminist issues" and show they understood that equality, women's rights, the work/life imbalance, the declining birthrate, sexual politics and relationships generally are important to everybody, not just women.
I received, a tsunami of emails. Many were considered arguments. A significant number were the bitter outpourings of men hurt by women. Some elucidated the frustrations of men who couldn't find Ms Right. Sadly, many were simply vitriolic or abusive.
In the hundreds of emails, anger appeared to be the underlying emotion because the writers believed the pendulum had swung too far in favour of women. There were some common threads: men were angry that women's needs took priority over theirs; they felt men constituted the majority of the unemployed, the homeless, the victims of industrial accidents and suicides, that men's health received less funding than women's, and that boys' education was poor. In relationships, they felt some women were "not very nice to men" and were often too selfish to consider their needs. These concerns are real,
but how many can really be blamed on feminism?
Essentially, men raised three broad concerns over why they did not engage in the debate on feminist issues. First, they were scared of being howled down by aggressive feminists who dismissed their views. Second, they felt they were victims too, but women didn't listen to them. Third, they were confused about what women really wanted and what constituted appropriate behaviour.
On the first issue, I agree, some women are dismissive of men's views simply because they are men. Men who speak out, wrote one man, are "smashed upon the rocks of indignation" and this made it "a very, very scary debate to engage with". Another said: "Opting out of an argument in which we cannot hope to be allowed an equal voice let alone a fair outcome is a perfectly rational response."
My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out. Put your case. It will stand or fall on its merit. Stop being scared. There are plenty of women willing to listen. And if you get howled down, get up and say it again. That's how women got their voices heard in the 1970s.
On the issue of men as victims, some argued women too are violent, that men have few rights on abortion, that female teachers get off more lightly when they sexually abuse male students, that men are vilified as pedophiles, that affirmative action is discriminatory, that women frequently win the custody battle. Clearly these concerns require attention. Perhaps it is governments that are not listening to men, rather than women.
Finally, some men were unsure of their role in society. This is complex, and women must recognise this. But men should also let common decency be their guide to appropriate behaviour. Being a decent human being shouldn't be that hard.
Equality is a prerequisite for development. When the shouting from our respective corners is over, perhaps resentment from both sides will melt.
Many emails I received were a cry from the heart from men. But it's not just about women listening to their words, it's about men taking action to improve their own lives. This means speaking out, whatever the consequences — engaging in the debate on equality or feminism or whatever it is called these days.
With that in mind, I'll leave the last words to a man: "Damned if we do, damned if we don't. We need to speak though. We do not want our daughters growing up stunted by arguments or situations that could have been campaigned away. Equally, our sons require education. But how do we do this with integrity? That's the challenge for all involved."
John O, I may not agree with everything you said on this thread, but this is a truth that deserves an AMEN.
If my wife shows me that she admires me (remember that Nancy Reagan "look" at Ronnie?), it's better than sex. Well, a little...
It was, and I'm sorry you had to see it. But the man's attitude toward women was crass also and I didn't see any of the God-fearing men of high moral character taking him to task for using women for sex and throwing them out. Not even those with daughters. I lost my temper.
Respect isn't a foreign only concept. My husband treats me with respect and I treat him with respect. I respect all my friends. I treat waiters and store clerks and my father with respect. I don't respect those who are rude and don't deserve it, or it means nothing :~D
You intermingle the meaning of respect in marriage with a service aspect that I see as just being nice and giving of yourself because you love someone.
Oh well, John... I know a lot of what has gotten you grief on this forum is semantics. You talk in a way that seems to reduce women to functions they provide for you. Perhaps it is just the coldness of text. You probably aren't my kinda guy, but you're probably an OK guy in your own life. I do hope you find love and companionship for yourself and your daughter.
That is the crux of what makes this creepy.
John, pretend with me, that one day, you meet a woman at church who is the answer to all your prayers. She is your soul mate. I mean, you finish each others sentences, love all the same things, you've never been happier. EXCEPT, after the 3rd date, it comes out that she's sterile.
So Sterile Stella introduces you to her younger sister. Fertile Myrtle. A nice girl, meets all the criteria. You could get alone with her OK. But you know that Stella is true match.
OK, I know the answer to this. Every woman reading this knows the answer to this. Sadly, even poor Myrtle will know the answer too....THAT is as simple as I can put it.
Men want respect? Women want love.
I don't mean namby pamby nice love. I don't mean spoil her with flowers love. I don't mean rub her feet love. Tell her she's pretty love.
I mean take a bullet for her love. Want her enough to give up something love. Love her disfigured love. Want her, and only her, forever her for eternity love.
Women want to be loved for themselves. Period. Any woman marrying you will always know that she is second. Always.
Actually, I find her rather attractive...
I try to tell my husband often that he's the coolest guy I know (he is)... and he likes a foot rub as much as I do :~D
To add on, I'm a non-jerk guy...who often loses women he likes to jerks, because for some odd reason, many women are attracted to jerks...
I sympathise with your situation. You've obviously been dealt a heavy emotional blow that hurt you, and hurt you a lot. Simply put, that sucks. However, that really doesn't reflect on ALL American women or American women in general. I'm married to an American woman, I've raised an American woman, and I've got one more who's coming up. So naturally as a husband, and father of American women, I'm not buying it.
Lol, do I really look like that much of a bad boy? I know I'm not exactly clean cut, but I never really thought of myself as a bad boy. I guess I just thought I looked rugged.
You're killing me!
I am a strong follower of the writings of John Eldrige (I suspect John O is too, based on the concepts he puts forth).
What amazed me is that his (Eldridge's) philosophy on what women, at the deepest level, want is to be the Beauty fought for and rescued by the Hero.
I mean take a bullet for her love. Want her enough to give up something love. Love her disfigured love. Want her, and only her, forever her for eternity love.
This almost sounds like it came straight out of Wild At Heart or Captivating. Some may not like it, but what you said is a universal truth.
Now, I'm still trying to figure out why so many women go for reclamation projects - men who look like they just got out on parole.
you->The above well proves my point. If you were HONEST and FAIR you would NEVER have made the above statement. YOU are part of the problem, John O.
I don't understand why you have a problem with the truth. Search for any thread posted by RogerFGay and you'll find a bunch of men who've lost their kids etc. In fact, I'll make it easy for you.:
20 Organizations and Authorities Blast PBS on "Breaking the Silence"
Just click the link to read the statistics on this. (or read any other thread by Roger). The studies have been done and the numbers point to 85 to 90 percent of women being awarded custody of the children (or roughly 9 times as many men lost everything as opposed to women). Of course in some jurisdictions the numbers are different. In an Arlington VA study 100% of child custody cases were settled in the woman's favor (or an infinite number of men lost everything compared to women)
Now if my statement is true (and it demonstrably is) how can you call me dishonest or unfair for making it?
Go find the womb to produce your children. And be sure to explain to the owner of that womb, that it and the children it bears, is more important than she is.
Now why are you attacking women who want to have children? I don't understand how you can put down someone just because she wants children and is willing to marry someone to have them. Does the fact that some people want children bother you? Or perhaps the idea of someone getting married is the sticker? I really don't understand.
Lol, sorry, but you won't even find a misdemeanor on my record. Nothing but a bunch of petty offenses in my youth. The worst I believe was a $100 fine back in the dark ages for having an illegal fire in a state park.
The whole biker thing is in my blood I guess. It's not an affection. My father was introduced to motorcycles in WWII, and brought his love of cycling back home. I literally grew up with motorcycles and having bikers around the house. I got my first bike when I was 6. Something would be amiss if I didn't reflect that subculture.
btw, and this is posed to you and music, is it really such a bad thing that women are attracted to excitement? Isn't that just a natural human inclinition?
We have some friends from church that just got married last year. She's a police officer, and he's a biker. He looks very rough on the outside, but he is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. Their wedding was a hilarious mix of people: the straight looking police officers and typical church members, the rough looking bikers, and then a group of punk looking young people that were friends with the bride's daughter. It was a great wedding! Very colorful!
Let's see... A woman asks men what they think. They answer. She ridicules them.
Sounds normal to me.
Not really. Here it is... When a guy is cocky and arrogant and a jerk to those around him, a woman sometimes thinks "Man, I'd love to have a guy like that on MY side in a battle". But the thing is, where they often go wrong is in the underlined part, they think the guy will not act that way toward ~them~. And they often find out they're wrong. It's tough to tame a jerk.
But have hope... There's gals out there that have figured out it's a lot of work and a pretty bruising experience to be around those jerks, and they realize, there really aren't enough battles and dragons to slay to make the bruises worthwhile.
~chuckling~
And their promiscuous cousin, Sloppy Sally, and her celibate sister, Frigid Midge...
The problem is the fault of both genders.
A man needs to be a man: Loving his wife so much he'd give his life up for her. Protecting and providing while loving and respecting. Treating his wife as a partner, not as property.
A woman needs to be a woman: Gentle and tender. Giving her husband the respect and support he needs AND deserves. Loving him and her children with all her might. Treating her husband as a partner, not as a means to an end.
There are wonderful American women out there. But ah, well. If you've given up on them, it makes it that much easier for some other guy to find a good American woman.
I know two who don't get to see their kids (ex-wives moved out of state to prevent it). I know two others who wouldn't get to see their kids if it wasn't for the guy the ex-wife ran away with running out on them and the ex having to move back home.
(Why would a woman run off with a guy who runs around with married women? Isn't it obvious that if he runs around with you he'll run around on you?)
I know several who suffer under extreme child support burdens (where the kids are obviously not getting the money)
Now admittedly most arrangements are done by the couple themselves but there are enough outrageous ones to show the system is broken.
Specifically, what is the problem with that? If you married, would you want mom to stay home with the kids? If so, why?
I'm just trying to figure out if you are one of those hypocrites who talks out of both sides of his mouth:
"Women should stay home with the kids. It's Mom's job to raise them. It's Dad's job to work."
"In cases of divorce, custody should not be awarded to moms so often. After all, the mother/child relationship is no more important than the father/child relationship."
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