Posted on 01/10/2006 1:49:22 AM PST by nickcarraway
SUSHI DAS discovers what men think about feminism.
'FEMINISM has turned women into selfish, spoiled, spiteful, powerless victims," shrieked the email. "Men are talking, can't you hear it? Marriage rates are down, birthrates are down, men are using women for their pleasure and then leaving them."
If it was only one of a handful of emails I received, I might not have given it much thought. But there were many more. "I do not think it's men or boys that need reforming. I think women are the main instigators of hate against one half of the population," wrote another man.
Then there was this: "I have healthy relationships with women and always have protected sex to avoid entrapment … why should I risk losing everything I own and having my children taken away from me?"
And this: "The modern guy is not looking for the 'services' past generations did, they often just want a nice person to share their life with, rather than someone who is going to be climbing corporate ladders, getting pregnant when she chooses and then assuming complete control of a child's life. That is not to say they are not supportive of women's careers and goals."
The emails were a response to a challenge I posed to men on this page a couple of weeks ago. Specifically, I asked them to engage in debates relating to "feminist issues" and show they understood that equality, women's rights, the work/life imbalance, the declining birthrate, sexual politics and relationships generally are important to everybody, not just women.
I received, a tsunami of emails. Many were considered arguments. A significant number were the bitter outpourings of men hurt by women. Some elucidated the frustrations of men who couldn't find Ms Right. Sadly, many were simply vitriolic or abusive.
In the hundreds of emails, anger appeared to be the underlying emotion because the writers believed the pendulum had swung too far in favour of women. There were some common threads: men were angry that women's needs took priority over theirs; they felt men constituted the majority of the unemployed, the homeless, the victims of industrial accidents and suicides, that men's health received less funding than women's, and that boys' education was poor. In relationships, they felt some women were "not very nice to men" and were often too selfish to consider their needs. These concerns are real,
but how many can really be blamed on feminism?
Essentially, men raised three broad concerns over why they did not engage in the debate on feminist issues. First, they were scared of being howled down by aggressive feminists who dismissed their views. Second, they felt they were victims too, but women didn't listen to them. Third, they were confused about what women really wanted and what constituted appropriate behaviour.
On the first issue, I agree, some women are dismissive of men's views simply because they are men. Men who speak out, wrote one man, are "smashed upon the rocks of indignation" and this made it "a very, very scary debate to engage with". Another said: "Opting out of an argument in which we cannot hope to be allowed an equal voice let alone a fair outcome is a perfectly rational response."
My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out. Put your case. It will stand or fall on its merit. Stop being scared. There are plenty of women willing to listen. And if you get howled down, get up and say it again. That's how women got their voices heard in the 1970s.
On the issue of men as victims, some argued women too are violent, that men have few rights on abortion, that female teachers get off more lightly when they sexually abuse male students, that men are vilified as pedophiles, that affirmative action is discriminatory, that women frequently win the custody battle. Clearly these concerns require attention. Perhaps it is governments that are not listening to men, rather than women.
Finally, some men were unsure of their role in society. This is complex, and women must recognise this. But men should also let common decency be their guide to appropriate behaviour. Being a decent human being shouldn't be that hard.
Equality is a prerequisite for development. When the shouting from our respective corners is over, perhaps resentment from both sides will melt.
Many emails I received were a cry from the heart from men. But it's not just about women listening to their words, it's about men taking action to improve their own lives. This means speaking out, whatever the consequences — engaging in the debate on equality or feminism or whatever it is called these days.
With that in mind, I'll leave the last words to a man: "Damned if we do, damned if we don't. We need to speak though. We do not want our daughters growing up stunted by arguments or situations that could have been campaigned away. Equally, our sons require education. But how do we do this with integrity? That's the challenge for all involved."
Even though I didn't sign up for the unnamed woman, conservative, FReeper ping, I saw the thread where the ping list was started.
So far on this thread I've read a blanket statement about women lying and another about "for women, it's all about the money".
I may join y'all on occasion as one of those unnamed women, conservative, FReeper's. It's very difficult for me to read these threads though because of the anger, hostility and outright hatred directed at all women by some of the 'men' who post on these threads.
Someone said on the other thread that as women we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. In the eyes of some of these male posters, the person was absolutely correct. (and not only about being a stay at home Mom vs a Mom who keeps her career skills up to date or who works outside of the home.)
She's not a puppy John
No she's a kitten.
(My pet name for my wife was kitten and hers for me was puppy. so since then girls have always been kittens)
LOL. As long as she doesn't tinkle on the floor I don't think we'll have to face that!
Thank you.
We really got mad, on that thread, and with due cause. This one has not been too bad. There's some cave men here, but the conversation is two way at least, and that's the important thing I wanted to see with the "unnamed woman, conservative, FReeper ping". That the threads that go on and on and on as relatively unanimous "Machonazi bitchfests" show the forum, and conservatism in a bad light, and drive away important voters, women.
We aren't gonna get the cavemen to go away or change overnight, but I don't want anyone lurking or reading this forum to think they are speaking decided conservative policy about the value of women. They need to be confronted. - As logically and tactfully as we can, of course. We don't want to be shrill. :~D
That's a little character test I utilize.
If a woman doesn't unlock the door for me (after my having done so for her), she doesn't get asked out on a second date no matter what else occurs during the evening.
Ah. I didn't realize that being a homebody went hand in hand with being an engineer. I wish I could say that I can relate, but I don't have a clue. At 42, and married for 15 years this June, we still enjoy going out and tearing up the town every now and then. My little group of friends is still known to throw wild-assed parties that you wouldn't dare bring a minor to. I life like that way. I can't see myself ever preferring to watch "Friends"
Engineers make great husbands as we are rock solid steady. Don't go off on flights of fancy all that much. We make good money. We can fix almost anything that goes wrong in the house (and those things we can't fix we know enough about to make sure the repair man doesn't rip us off). We are the ultimate in dependable and loyal. Mid life crisis? Maybe a new computer or siding for the house (in a wild and unpredictable color like cream or light blue!). Again stereotypically we are great husbands.
Again with the different view on life. I always considered myself a good husband because I try to keep life new and exciting. Or rather, because I NEED to keep life new and exciting to fulfill my own needs. It just worked out that women really seem to dig that. I like my wife to know that this weekend might be even more fun than the last one. In the end, we're all decrepit with nothing but memories. I want those memories to be worth it.
It's the same quality that I think makes me a good father. There is nothing like seeing a kid beam when he shows a friend a snapshot and says, "This is when my Dad taught me how to land a 7' drop on my mountain bike." Or, "This is when my Dad and I rode up Pikes Peak on his Harley."
The one flaw we have as husbands is we are very poor at listening to problems. We will solve them in the blink of an eye but we have to restrain ourselves to let our wives vent about it completely before we fix it. Fortunately most of us are smart enough to realize this.
Fix a woman's problem? In all my years of marriage I've yet to fix a problem that my wife brought up. I've come to realize that they're all unfixable, and that she just wants me to nod and smile while she enjoys the recounting of the details.
I dunno about that. I'm short, bald, rough around the edges, I don't clean up well, and I never made much money. Maybe I just read the wrong list.
I am sorry for the loss of your wife.
Ignore the misogynists. Most of us love women, truly.
It works out quite well, because we marry ladies who are homebodies themselves, and everyone's quite happy.
I would be as out-of-place at your parties as a minnow driving a Cadillac, and it doesn't bother me in the slightest.
Precisely!
In my current job situation, I sometimes meet American men who marry foreign women from more traditional societies. Even though my job is to interview the women, the men answer for them. Sometimes the women don't utter a word.
At first I thought it was because they couldn't speak English. But after several of them walked away speaking perfect English to their American mates, I realized I was wrong.
These men want the upperhand and want to control their women. And they keep them on a short leash. It's pitiful.
I understand completely. Viva le differance!
Wow... quite a powerful statement and most accurate.
The man simply stated some criteria he employs. Nothing wrong with that. Everyone is entitled to their own set of standards.
You've previously lamented that hostility on the part of some FReepers may be discouraging others from participating. Well, there's a flip side to that coin .... Contentious hen pecking can discourage some from posting as well.
Pot meet kettle.
I do too! Back when I was taking public transportation I'd also give up my seat to those who looked as if they needed to sit down, male or female.
I also learned how to change my own tire rather than wait on someone else to do it for me. Now, I never turned down any help but I'll be darned if I'm going to be stuck on the side of the road waiting and waiting. It may take me quite awhile longer since I'll have to wrestle with the tire but at least I won't be at someone else's mercy.
As far as this shelf-life issue...I'd have to wonder what problems a man might have if he hadn't been married by the time he was 35. (Inability to commit? Perrenial playboy? Mama's boy? and so on.) The only 'shelf-life' I can concede women would have would be the limits to their ability to procreate.
So it is true, at least, when they say they want something they can no longer find in American women.
I don't think most 'traditional men' of old really wanted women who were weak and submissive. I don't think John Wayne needed to keep a woman on a short leash to have her respect. I think he probably got the real kind of respect that was earned by merit ;~D I just think there are a small minority of people (I won't even say it's just men) who have a warped view of relationships, and a need for power over somebody. They don't do well in relationships in this country.
I'm really trying to treat everyone with tact. I may have moments, but I like to think I've been very fair.
Dr. Laura's book the one about taking care of husbands is pretty good.
Basically, she says that men are easy. Basically, give them sex and food and they're happy. It's a little more complicated than that. I think a lot of women don't make their husbands feel appreciated, and husbands need to feel appreciated. Wives need to be nice to their husbands: greet their husbands, tell them thanks for doing things, hug them, tell them you love them. Also, husbands need sex to feel close to their wives.
I'd add just common kindness and politeness to your list. It makes a big difference if husbands and wives treat each other like they were still courting. "Please," "thank you", and asking each others' permission before inconveniencing them go a long way.
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