Evolution's Thermodynamic Failure

The American Spectator ^ | December 28, 2005 | Granville Sewell

[johnnyb_61820]

... the idea that the four fundamental forces of physics alone could rearrange the fundamental particles of nature into spaceships, nuclear power plants, and computers, connected to laser printers, CRTs, keyboards and the Internet, appears to violate the second law of thermodynamics in a spectacular way.

Anyone who has made such an argument is familiar with the standard reply: the Earth is an open system, it receives energy from the sun, and order can increase in an open system, as long as it is "compensated" somehow by a comparable or greater decrease outside the system. S. Angrist and L. Hepler, for example, in "Order and Chaos", write, "In a certain sense the development of civilization may appear contradictory to the second law.... Even though society can effect local reductions in entropy, the general and universal trend of entropy increase easily swamps the anomalous but important efforts of civilized man. Each localized, man-made or machine-made entropy decrease is accompanied by a greater increase in entropy of the surroundings, thereby maintaining the required increase in total entropy."

According to this reasoning, then, the second law does not prevent scrap metal from reorganizing itself into a computer in one room, as long as two computers in the next room are rusting into scrap metal -- and the door is open. In Appendix D of my new book, The Numerical Solution of Ordinary and Partial Differential Equations, second edition, I take a closer look at the equation for entropy change, which applies not only to thermal entropy but also to the entropy associated with anything else that diffuses, and show that it does not simply say that order cannot increase in a closed system. It also says that in an open system, order cannot increase faster than it is imported through the boundary. ...

[freedumb2003]

How long do you suppose it would be before I could randomly generate even a simple useful program? One whose complexity is one billionth that of a living, reproducing, intelligent lifeform?

What is it with you CRIDers? Is it absolutely impossible for you to discuss this without misrepresenting the Theory at hand? I am keeping a tote board and there are very few CRID posts that actually address the issue at hand. But this thread will go into a hall of fame for the number of logical fallacies in a single thread (virtually all CRIDers).

Please, read some of Ichneumon's very well-written, researched and reasoned posts on this thread. Then, when you have a fundemental grasp of what theory of evolution is, you can try to directly engage the arguments before you.

[ICE-FLYER]

Why, to conservative bible schools that teach the God-given truth of creationism, of course! I mean, it's not like foreign students are flocking to those atheistic Ivy League schools that teach evilution.

LOL!! Even the very conservative much maligned Bob Jones University in S.C. teaches the theory of Evolution, where are the other schools on the debate?? Why they are shunning any form of creation teaching except in their religious courses.

[Elsie]

By providing an inital set..."

AhHA!

This is cheating! ;^)

[Elsie]

... can you tell us why the three stooges are so funny?

I could, but then I'd have ta kill ya!

[Elsie]

I guess it doesn't take much to be published in the Spectator.

Or here in FreeperLand.

[Elsie]

What this means is, basically, that this guy is full of poop and that the bible literalists on this forum need to take a rest.

Yes, Oh Great Master: it is as you say.....

[Free Baptist]

It is clear by now that there is a "scholars union." The "scholars union" believes in the religion of Darwin, and anyone not believing in Darwin's theories are not accepted in the union, no matter what their academic accomplishments, their scientific credentials or their skills. They must adhere to the belief system of the union, or they are belittled. This Texas scientist, therefore, will be as belittled on Free Republic as a Kent Hovind. Which may actually mean that Kent Hovind is at least as qualified to speak as the U of T scientist, or as much as any of the Darwinian evolutionists. There is entropy in the "scholars union."

[Elsie]

A lot of silly creo talk! LOL!

Yea!!

The big KaHuna has been paged. NOW we'll get things rollin'!

[Free Baptist]

You only want to believe that Katrina had no intelligent designer. Are you trying to prove that hurricanes defy the laws of thermodynamics? What do they leave in their wake? Why don't they become moons of the earth.

[Elsie]

Personally, I get sunburned. A few days ago, as I breathlessly opened yet another Christmas package, I read the box label as the wrapping came off in shreds; "Solar Powered Tanning Bed"

Imagine my confusion as I removed a brilliantly colored beach towel!

[bobdsmith]

Not once but thirty some times in a row. Solar energy, like any other form of energy is chaos, the intersection of pure energy to create an organized system requires physical rules (gas laws, the Coriolis effect, &c.) to impose order

So the argument of the article is bunk afterall. Given physical rules in place, and solar energy coming in, order can arise from disorder.

So for example, The physical rules of natural selection, replication and mutation enable evolution to work. There is nothing about the 2LOT that says it shouldn't work.

[Elsie]

As an atheist with no (zero) interest in religion...

Ahha!

There's yer problem.

As you get older, your interest will tend to increase.

---

That's why I'm an atheist. I know when to say, "Gee, I don't KNOW... hmm."

Uh... this makes you an agnostic, not an atheist.

[bobdsmith]

Non-sequiter. There is a systematic influnce at work in this: the differing densities of the liquids, and a gravitational field

So you are saying the 2nd law of thermodynamics does not apply in the presence of other natural laws? No wonder you think it conflicts with evolution.

[Elsie]

By this guys logic should we be running out of stuff to make new people with?

Well, we DO continually re-cycle the biomass.

HMmmm... I wonder where all this biomass came from to begin with?

Gravel, sand and dust don't seem to be too edible.

[Elsie]

Thanks. But I'm not going to bother the evolution ping list for /I>

Too many Christmas toys to play with instead? ;^)

[Elsie]

Ok, but we're up to 455 already without the rest of you guys.

[freedumb2003]

You only want to believe that Katrina had no intelligent designer. Are you trying to prove that hurricanes defy the laws of thermodynamics? What do they leave in their wake? Why don't they become moons of the earth.

Huh? Are you saying Katrina came into existence as a result fof divine intervention? And that hurricanes need divine "help" to break up?

These are all natural and explainable phenomenon. But your post shows how dangerous and insidious ID is. If more people thought like you there would be no Meteorology.

[Elsie]

...then we ought to expect to see hundreds of thousands of chemicals just hanging around in the body, waiting to be used when a species evolves an X-Ray eye or laser tail stinger.

Amen!

There shouldn't be 'species' at all; but an amazing continum of critters and stuff.

[Elsie]

You are a IDIOT!

Now now....

No need to gild the lily.