Posted on 12/06/2005 6:28:53 AM PST by GOPGuide
In a bid to bypass critics, the Senate will pass the plan and then merge it with a House bill, observers say.
Washington - Republican leaders will try to pass President Bush's controversial guest-worker proposal without putting it to a direct vote in the House.
Observers say the new GOP strategy that begins today is for the House to deal only with the more politically palatable issue of increasing border security and clamping down on employers. Republican leaders then will let the Senate pass some form of a guest-worker plan.
After that vote, senators and House members will merge the House's border security bill with the Senate's legislation in closed-door meetings.
The House will then vote on the final package, which will include some guest-worker provision, according to a GOP aide familiar with the plan, a Colorado lawmaker and other observers.
The strategy is designed to avoid a divisive debate and contentious vote in the House.
"There is a widespread expectation that that is how it's going to play out," said Tamar Jacoby, immigration expert with The Manhattan Institute, a conservative think tank. "I think it would be hard to pass in the House without the Senate going first."
The legislation that is likely to be the core of the House's immigration bill is expected to be introduced today. Sponsored by Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., it tightens border security and forces employers to verify workers' citizenship. It does not address guest-worker issues.
Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., the biggest opponent of the president's guest-worker
proposal, said the strategy limits his ability to challenge the measure. "They're doing it this way because they know in the House they'll run into a buzz saw and maybe my name's on it," said Tancredo, who heads the 92-member Immigration Reform Caucus in the House.
Sensenbrenner's bill is expected to be voted on within the next two weeks. That allows House members to visit their districts for the Christmas break and say that they passed immigration reform, Tancredo and Jacoby said.
But the House members will be aware of the plan to build in a guest-worker program through the conference committee, said Grover Norquist, a Republican strategist who often serves as an informal liaison between Congress and the White House.
"The president's made it clear he wants both (border security and a guest-worker program)," Norquist said.
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Here's one more thing for you to chew on. A large percentage of the 15 million+/- Illegals are employed with false/stolen SS#'s. This money has been going into the the SS system for decades without anyone stepping forward to file claims against it. Despite these millions(?) of unclaimed dollars the system is still in trouble.
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Source?
LOL!!
For what, the SS system being in trouble or the fact Illegals using stolen/forged SS documents have been contributing?
Seems both are common knowledge, but if you need a refresher try Googling Illegal Alien Social Security. I did and received 4,800,000 hits.
I should have known that the GOP finally getting serious about true immigration reform was too good to be true. Let's hope they get caught in their own snare.
No I think there's a misunderstanding. The question was where are there government statistics on the number of illegal aliens working with stolen SS numbers? The relevant part of the quote is :
>A large percentage of the 15 million+/- Illegals are employed with false/stolen SS#'s. This money has been going into the the SS system for decades without anyone stepping forward to file claims against it. Despite these millions(?) of unclaimed dollars
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Is there a specific source for "large percentage" claim? If so what was the specific percentage? Given my explanation below, the higher the better.
This money you describe going into the system would go in under a number attached to a name and that is . . . who? Is the person whose social security number has been allegedly stolen dead? If so, this is indeed a marvelous contribution by whoever is paying that tax. Why would you want this to stop? These taxes would be paid in and no benefit ever collected. It's a huge plus to the system.
Also, do you have a source for this scenario of alleged stolen Social Security numbers?
BTW, it occurs to me that if an illegal is working under a stolen Social Security number, then the employer is contributing 6% and withholding an additional 6% of pay for a total of 12% of pay sent in to the Social Security Administration. If an employer knows the number is bogus, why would he want to cost himself that extra 12% sent to the government? So the presumption is the employer doesn't know the number is stolen. If not, then the SS system does indeed get a full 12% of pay influx for which benefits will never be claimed. This is a very positive thing for the SS system. Why would you want to stop it?
I think maybe you will feel more comfortable with this scenario you have described if you get some firm government statistics to quote on the number of workers working using stolen social security numbers and . . . how much that is benefiting the system. Or more likely, that none of this is happening.
There you go again, advocating rewarding lawbreakers for violating our immigration laws. We don't need illegal aliens in the United States for any reason. Any job currently being done by an illegal alien can be done by an American worker or a legal immigrant worker.
If you advocate deportation rather than punishment through fine, documenting and expanding the SS tax base, then you are advocating tax increases. There Is No Mathematical Way Around This. Demographics define this.
Make your choice. Do you advocate extra government spending on escorted busrides to the border and sharp, painful increases in SS taxes or do you want to punish illegals, parole them and make them contributing members of society. There are no other choices.
Yes there is another choice. Deport all illegal alien lawbreakers and replace them with American workers and legal immigrant workers. By doing this, we will be expanding the SS tax base and we won't need to increase SS taxes.
"Here's the drill: People enter the country illegally, promptly procure bogus Social Security cards from the black market, and use them to get jobs. Eventually they get paid, and those earnings generate W-2s that go to the Social Security Administration, which tucks them away in something called the "earnings suspense file." (The government does try to notify some of the larger employers that Social Security cards they've accepted appear to be phony, but that's about the extent of its efforts to figure out where all this money is coming from.) According to the best estimates of the Social Security Administration, the fund has kept track over the last 20 years of more than $300 billion in total earnings – the vast majority of them attributable to illegal immigrants."
Do you not see that this proves your solution a failed one?
"These taxes would be paid in and no benefit ever collected. It's a huge plus to the system."
Are you now suggesting we tax guest workers and deny them access to benefits?
This idea that endless millions of Third World immigrants are going to "save" Social Security is the biggest bunch of hogwash I've ever heard. People will believe ANYTHING. The fact is its the exact opposite: these immigrants are in the process of BANKRUPTING our country.
All the nice-sounding hypothetical talk about the wonderful things these immigrants are going to do for us in the unforseen future really cracks me up. It reminds me of the suitor telling his would-be girlfriend about all the wonderful things that he, and their relationship, are going to do for her in the unforseen future. Mightn't the woman be better served by talking to some of the suitor's PREVIOUS girlfriends to find out what he already did to THEM? As opposed to listening to his nice-sounding speeches of the future?
Well, heres what these Third World immigrants have already done. They are fleeing impoverished countries they've already ruined. They certainly don't seem to have had much of an up-lifting effect on their OWN countries economies. Why in the world should I believe they'd have an uplifting effect on ours?
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Yes there is another choice. Deport all illegal alien lawbreakers and replace them with American workers and legal immigrant workers. By doing this, we will be expanding the SS tax base and we won't need to increase SS taxes.
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No, there is not. You need to study the nation's demographics. There are not enough American working age people. Period. Full stop. There is no way around this. The population of the US does not have enough working age people to fund SS. The way to address that is very precisely what you suggest, and what I suggest. We're in agreement. Have the job done by legal immigrant workers -- which is what an illegal becomes after enduring his punishment and parole.
Only in this way can the SS tax base keep your parents from starving and allow you to retain your conservative credentials by opposing tax increases.
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As I say, search it out for yourself, it's all there for those that WANT to see.
This from the first page of the search I suggested:
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What was the source of that following paragraph? The URL will suffice if it is from government sources.
But it looks like excellent news. Lots of money going into the SS system from illegals with no benefits paid. A strong positive.
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"These taxes would be paid in and no benefit ever collected. It's a huge plus to the system."
Are you now suggesting we tax guest workers and deny them access to benefits?
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Well, I think there's a misunderstanding here. It is what you are suggesting is taking place, not me. And I'm saying that if you're correct, it is a marvelous thing. Those folks are paying 6% of their paychecks into Social Security and never collecting a benefit. That would mean the cash is available for your parents. This is a very good thing, if true, which I doubt.
Shhhhh...people will start finding out that the whole damn thing is an illusory warehouse full of political raider's promissory notes if you keep that up!
Here's one smelling faintly of Coor's...(let me blow the dust off)...
"Dear Citizens of the Future, I needed this money to build the Great Society you are no doubt enjoying now. Now that citizens of all colors are equally producing riches thanks to my wisdom and foresight you should now contribute a percentage of your fabulous wealth toward helping the rest of the world." Signed - LBJ.
Owen: Seriously, we've been kicking around this matter of "Totalization" with Mexico here for a few years now and the end-sum always comes out the same: much faster depletion of SSI funds with them than without them.
Support H.R. 1631 -- Stop Social Security for Illegal Aliens, Mexico's Undeclared War on America, A FReeper's Guide To Immigration Reform, US Mexico Totalization Agreement
The Administration's wish to tie our program to the notoriously fraudulent Mexican government is directly comparable to inviting the fox into the henhouse. Bottom line: if your government cares so little about SSI's continued existence on that hand while feeding you that line about illegals being necessary for its perpetuity on the other, guess which hand is left holding the fertilizer?
I know. Use a little forward thinking on it, just how many will have to follow to support the system when this batch is ready to retire? Since we need roughly a 16 to 1 ratio for the system to work, America will be a very crowded and miserable place in short order.
Only in this way can the SS tax base keep your parents from starving and allow you to retain your conservative credentials by opposing tax increases.
No, we are not in agreement. You want to reward illegal alien lawbbreakers and I don't. There are currently millions of able-bodied Americans on welfare. We need to kick these Americans off of welfare and put them to work, or let them starve. In addition, we need to increase the number of legal immigrants that we let into the United States. There are currently tens of millions of foreigners around the world who have already filed their paperwork and who are waiting patiently for their turn to legally immigrate to the United States. These are the people who I want to reward with jobs, not the illegal aliens who have no respect for our laws.
By deporting the illegal aliens and letting in more legal immigrants (along with kicking Americans off of welfare), Social Security will continue to get funded and we won't need to increase taxes.
You really need to be spoon fed. I have seen the type before, always doubting, always with the "show me the source", NEVER wanting to search for themselves, and in the end, still in denial.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050410/news_mz1e10ruben.html
.........or close to home...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1377523/posts
Again. This proves, undeniably, that your solution is doomed to fail.
Love your posts.
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http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050410/news_mz1e10ruben.html
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Guy, that's an editorial. Not a source. Besides which what the editorial writer is saying is that SS does in fact benefit from the scenario described -- which is good, not bad.
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1377523/posts
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Now here you've done a better job. The URL is not the source, but the basis of it is a fact-checked article from the NYT (yes, I know, not reliable fact checking there).
But again, this is filled with marvelous news! It does support your claim that illegals are paying into the SS system and never applying for benefits. How can this be bad? This is going to feed your parents.
Looking further in the article . . . .
"The file has been mushrooming ever since: $189 billion worth of wages ended up recorded in the suspense file over the 1990's, two and a half times the amount of the 1980's.
In the current decade, the file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes.
In 2002 alone, the last year with figures released by the Social Security Administration, nine million W-2's with incorrect Social Security numbers landed in the suspense file, accounting for $56 billion in earnings, or about 1.5 percent of total reported wages. "
This is marvelous! How can one not see this is a windfall? If you erase it, then SS falls apart and old folks literally starve. These people are putting food in the mouths of older Americans.
An interesting excerpt from the article's middle:
"While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: the money added up to about 10 percent of last year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. Moreover, the money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections."
So this is even more powerfully supportive of the concept of their value. I had thought the optimal strategy was to impose a punishment for breaking the law and then after the punishment, getting them documented in order to collect tax revenue. But apparently this is already happening even before documentation. I suspect they still deserve to be punished (with a fine), but given the above generosity they are displaying one can make a case for them deserving a reward.
"Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. It also means that workers must be paid by the book - with payroll tax deductions."
One wonders what more an employer should be required to look for to determine the job applicant is entitled to work. It is not the employer's responsibility to stop green card forgers on the street. He has a business to run. Law enforcement should be stopping counterfeiting of those documents.
In conclusion, you did have sources for the claim that these illegals were contributing so generously, without expectation of eventual benefits, which is what these sources say. I stand corrected in questioning if you had sources. You did and they say really encouraging things.
LOL!! Yes, quite "encouraging". Despite Billions "so generously" contributed by Illegals, the system is failing. Just imagine 20 or 30 million "guest workers" not only paying in but drawing SS benefits! Watching the system crash will be downright EXCITING!!!
Like I said, in the end you're still in denial.
You're a politician aren't you?
And I'm saying that if you're correct, it is a marvelous thing. Those folks are paying 6% of their paychecks into Social Security and never collecting a benefit.
Wow, your moral faculties amaze me. I say again, a politician. It's "mathmatical only", what's in it for me? Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you.
And yes, I am trying to guide your moral compass again but I didn't realize you didn't have one. It's ok to use and abuse these people as slave labor as long as you come ahead with money!!
If it wasn't so sad it would be hilarious. How desperate do you have to be to cling to that for a silver lining!!
Oh and read on. Now he seems to have abandoned any legalization scheme that would allow them access to benefits. Now he just wants to continue the current "encouraging" arrangement!!
"Humankind cannot stand too much reality," said T.S. Eliot.
Our capacity for self-deception has no limits.
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